65 replies to this topic

[cunning_plan]

Ok first off im new on the formums so hi all.

i am quite(6 months) new to pyro but can already see many angry faces to this question...
is potassium chlorate that bad to use as a replacment to potassium nitrate in bp? it seems to work fine for me and is much easyer, it is also a lot cheaper only issues is everywhere seems to say not to use it especialy not with sulphur. ive so far had no problems, it is only sensitive if i hit a pile of it with a hammer and i havent been storing it. as there seems to be loads of conflicting info on this everywhere i decided somone here would most likely no if it is safe to use? i would by perc but i can only find it realy expensive so...also which is a better for use as oxidiser in propellants nitrate or chlorate.
sorry to bring this issue up again i just wanted a realy clear answer.

[Richard H]

Sigh...

[adamw]

Oh. Thats quite insensitive then. Just hit a pile of it with a hammer...

YOU ARE AWARE OF THE DANGERS BUT STILL CONTINUE TO FOOL YOUR SELF THAT IT IS SAFE TO USE....

It is cheaper?? Where do you get your KNO3 from? Harrods??

You wont last longer than six months if you carry on like this!!

[Richard H]

Whats your full name? I'd like to nominate you for a Darwin award.

[alany]

The very fact it ignites when you hit it with a hammer should tell you it isn't "safe".

Example: suppose you drop a container of this "Chlorate-BP"? Experencing a few hundred grams of Chlorate-BP going up at close range would likely be fatal, if not extremely painful and disfiguring. Chlorate-BP ignites at least 70 K cooler and burns at least 800 K hotter than normal BP, it is quite a bit faster and has a much more nasty pressure exponent.

Chlorates are always the last choice of oxidiser. There are some applications that need Chlorates, but experenced pyrotechnists avoid it like the plague and only use its death mixes in small quantities where nothing else is really suitable. There are some more common chlorate based colour and burst compositions that are used with caution, but the amateur with little experence is best to keep the hell away from them.

Potassium Nitrate is very cheap, widely available, and a relatively safe oxidiser, why wouldn't you use it where ever possible?

Potassium Nitrate is superior for most "propellant" uses because it is safer, Duh!

Have you seen any Chlorate propellant compositions? There is a reason why there aren't (m)any, Chlorates are bloody dangerous just sitting there, let alone pressing or ramming them into a tube. The higher pressure exponent also causes you problems using them granulated for guns, even mortars - although H3 can be made to work as lift.

Potassium Nitrate also has a higher oxygen density, but that point is kinda moot because you need to soak up the K ion with something else, that isn't very efficient as the product is generally a Potassium Chalcogenide which tend to be a polymerised liquids at modest temperatures so it has more latent heat than (ionic) Chlorides, but you get Nitrogen gas out with Nitrates so I am not really sure if one is all that much better than the other. I can't be stuffed doing the thermodynamics to tell, just give up the Chlorates before you kill yourself or someone else and make every pyro hobbist's life that much worse.

[gilbert pinkston]

a wise man learns from instruction...a fool from experience............proverbs

i had a small chlorate mishap once.....now i stay away from them
chlorates are easy to make or buy but i convert them to perchlorate....it makes it easier to relax and enjoy what you are doing

Edited by gilbert pinkston, 19 February 2005 - 02:43 PM.

[cunning_plan]

i hit it with a hammer before i realised how dangerouse it was, i presumed it was unstable so hit a very samll amount. its cheaper because i bought loads of weedkiller then displaced with lo salt. can it be turned into perc easy? to me in small quantities it didnt seem that dangerouse but i have never stored or made large quantities. this was also before i fully understood its properties.(bearing in mind this was 6months ago when id just started pyro and was trusting to a mates advice.)

if nitrates are the best proplellant what mix does anyone suggest?
is it safe to use with metal powders?

[adamw]

Is it (chlorate?) safe to use with metal powders?? Absolutely not!!!...

But wait a minute... you think it is safe because it is only detonates when hit with a hammer. So yes. Go ahead and use it!! NOT!

Please read up on the dangers before you ask any more questions. As for the price, again... which is more important? some cheapo weedkiller or your life. Think about it!

[cunning_plan]

with respect to all im not arguing the issue im asking. as i said ive found conflicting advice and wanted it resolved. thankyou. what i didnt mention is that i havent actualy used it since. is it safe for any purpouse or not? why do lots of old mixtures use it? can it be made into something more useful if so how?

cheers for help all.

[Richard H]

Old mixtures containing chlorates were used because perchlorates were less readily available. Mixtures containing chlorates are sensitive to shock, friction, and static electricity.

Chlorates should never be mixed with metal powders, sulphur, or phosphorous to name a few. There have been many accidents (and indeed still are if you look at some of the dodgy Chinese factories) involving chlorates and using them only tempts fate. Generally only experienced individuals should handle chlorate containing compositions, and even so their use is very rare beyond specialist mixtures for matches and amorces, generally speaking.

Almost all modern compositions use perchlorates or nitrates for good reason. The best propellent to use in fireworks for a lift or burst charge is black powder.

I recommend you obtain a copy of Introductory Practical Pyrotechnics from Skylighter.

[gilbert pinkston]

cunning plan
i don't think you did anything "wrong"
i'm sure most of us here have done similar at some time
but now there is beginning to develope a body of knowlege drawing on others experiances
so you can take advantage of that (you are fortunate)
be safer and add to this body of knowlege for others
this is sill a disipline with plenty of room for improvement you can be part of it
pyro has to be practiced with certain constrains in order to be the beautiful art form it is

Edited by gilbert pinkston, 20 February 2005 - 12:27 AM.

[ProfHawking]

ok, this may be a stupid question, but i have some pottassium chlorate. i am heasetant to use this in stars, as i well know, it's dangerous stuff.
so my question - is there a simple way to "degrade" pottassium chlorate into pottassium perchlorate?
I'm an engineer not a chemist, so it may be a stupid impossible proposition, but if it is possible, how could one do so?

[gilbert pinkston]

two ways i know of
thermal decomposition.....heat the KClO3 just to the melting point in pyrex or porcilin (i can't find the spell check)......heat a little more untill it starts to bubble but not too much...if you have it right after an hour or so you will notice it starting to solidify..... remove it from the heat when it is a solid....do not over heat or you will get nothing but KCl all the O2 will be gone......i have done it many times and you get in KClO4 about half of what you started with in KClO3 possibly more
electrolitically (the way i've been doing it for about a year) you have to study this one a little there is enough on the web to get you started
first you have to make PbO2 anodes......i use Na instead of K but i may try K in the near future for various reasons all though for NH4ClO4 i think you are stuck with Na
beware of the Pb(NO3)2 involved it is very toxic and builds up in your body.....but it may be safer than trying to do everything using chlorates
the best method by far would be to use a Pt anode which some people here are doing

[Nova]

NEVER attempt to synthesize your own Ammonium Perchlorate, unless you are 100% sure that your Potassium/Sodium Perchlorate doesn't contain any chlorate. Ammonium chlorate is extremely unstable and can explode vigorously.

Converting KClO3 to KClO4 electrolytically will not work; Potassium Chlorate is too insoluble.

[Pretty green flames]

Converting KClO3 to KClO4 electrolytically will not work; Potassium Chlorate is too insoluble.

Ofcourse it would work, but you'd need A LOT of water.