1235 replies to this topic

[KNO3]

kno3.com is not (in my view) a respected seller, and there prices are just a bit over the top. If i were you i would try and find somewhere else.

[curious aardvark]

Yep all valid - but it just makes forums like this look like they are trying real hard to hide something. If we're all putting these substances to innocent use - why hide ? And if someone knows a supplier (and let's face it these people can't all be bent or idiots) who's happy to support the hobby - why keep it to yourself.
I just find it all a bit to cloak and dagger is all.

[karlfoxman]

Not everyone will have an inocent use though, this forum is looked at by hundreds or thousands a day! I think its a very good idea to hide the names from people who wish to cause mischief and harm. Not saying your going to cause trouble but someday someone might. Better to be safe than sorry.

[Andrew]

there is another forum that has a whole section dedicated to supplier reviews, kind of a yellow pages for pyro + customer feedback. The information is readily available out there on the web, its just a case of knowing how to use google properly. Perhaps a similar thing on this forum would win support. Some might argue against it due to the 12 year old element, but at the end of the day it's down to the supplier who they sell to, and to monitor dodge action. There are some real dodge suppliers out there who would sell anything to anyone, but to be frank they seldom last very long before being forced out of business or get nicked.

There is one example that is trading right now. This company may as well be operated from jail. When they started ripping people off that were stupid enough to pay, they were believe it or not, trading under a false name, they were illegal to their necks. They were using the company name and number of a company that got dissolved back in the early 90's. Now they are just as slippery. In fact they are still breaking many laws. At the risk of being called a slanderous pig (that's happened a bit lately, although I'm not really worried I AM 110% sure on this Adam ), KNO3.com has broken pretty much every law to do with hazardous products, and their prices!, fu*k a duck sideways, there extortionate.

Anyway, to round up, perhaps a 'suppliers review pages' section could be put up for thought.

[Mumbles]

I admin at the forum mentioned. We are american based and for the most part list the big pyro suppliers. There are also a few member companies. Just list well known places for the most part. I still have my secrect stash that I don't tell anyone about. My personal policy is that the company is not a pyro supplier I don't list it. If others want to give away their goodies, let them feel free though.

It has good info, and helps people keep away from shady suppliers, who are often more expensive in the long run than the skylighters or Firefoxes. It also helps people getting started in the hobby find some good sources, but not the best sources.

Edited by Mumbles, 15 September 2005 - 02:51 AM.

[LadyKate]

The argument that we shouldn't tell about all our sources seems flawed. Policing of the sales of goods is not normally the job of the customers - rather it is the job of the retailers. Thus, holding back on sources seems to have other motivations.

Shouldn't we really be boosting the hobby instead of creating artificial barriers of entry?

Edited by LadyKate, 15 September 2005 - 04:01 PM.

[Stuart]

True, we should be trying to boost this hobby, but I dont think it should be done by putting up chemical suppliers on the internet. This barrier that we have will 'weed out all none hackers'. True it will turn away a few genuine people, but honestly, if you cant be bothered looking for suppliers, then you probably dont care for the hobby as much as you think. You could also argue that if you cannot be bothered about finding suppliers, then how on earth can you be bothered about safety (somewhat more complicated than a few hours of searching)?

You would think that companies would go into a lot of depth to find you what some chemicals are used for (they almost certainty do now, with all thats going on with terrorism), but believe me, they dont always, I have read about some very dodgy combinations of chemicals being bought without too much trouble.

There are some shady suppliers, and thank god that they all charge extortionate prices, makes it difficult for any large quantity of chemicals to be bought.

I am not completely against a chemical supplier database, I would benefit from it my self, but it should not be publicly available.

Edited by Stuart, 15 September 2005 - 06:35 PM.

[adamw]

At the risk of sounding 'elitist'... some things (sources) have to be earned. Stick at it with what you can get and sooner or later, after acquiring trust and respect, the information will be handed over.

[LadyKate]

At the risk of sounding 'elitist'... some things (sources) have to be earned. Stick at it with what you can get and sooner or later, after acquiring trust and respect, the information will be handed over.

Actually, that does sound elitist - no offense, though. I know you are being honest. However, I'll bet a newbie would really groan at that one. The big question is, who decides when the 'dues' have been paid? Doling out favors to the minions is a difficult game to play without getting one's ethics dirty.

There is a line in the movie "The Man With Two Brains" where a doctor tells Steve Martin that he is playing God. Steve's response is "Someone has to do it!" ... That's the kind of conversation I feel like I'm in.

[BigG]

Well, I think that there is no strait answer to that. I guess that some chemicals are easier to obtain, and you are expected to show you know what to do with them before allowed to move onto the more energetic chemicals. When someone that just start building staff is asking for pyro aluminium, perchlorate, bariums and the such, you have to ask if they know what they are getting into and if they can be trusted to work within the law.

It takes awhile, but after displaying your seriousness for the more experience members, you will eventfully get there. Conversation in the nature of: I?m a beginner ? help me to get chemicals storage room stock ? is just not going to help, and to some degree are being ignored.

I myself think that those who do good sources ? should not rub the fact in other member?s noses ? it just plainly not polite and unfair, and I hope that practice will stop.

[KNO3]

To some extent i have to agree wih BigG and adamw, you dont really want a dim teenager to be getting access to powerfull chemicalls, and be hideing Mg powder under their bed away form their pearents, then attempting to blow up a lampost whilst drunk and blowing their head off (taking it to the extreme). Wheras an intelligent 14yr old, preferably with the guidance of his pearents and the experties on this forum, could have a safe hobby in pyrotechnics. The problem is telling the difference between these people on a forum, u have to earn respect and then you should be rewarded. What i dont like is the, uncommon, process of "pulling up the ladder" because pyros selfishly want their supplyer all to themselves. This can lead to kids trying to steal chemicals from school Chemistry departments, although, as i read earlyer "we have all done it" should not be the case, as those chemicals are for getting people quallifications in chemistry and should not be used for anything but that! So i have somewhat mixed feelings about this process, mabey it would be good if members could request cirtificates from the admin that state they are "trusted" or allowed them access to a restricted part of the forum??? Just a thought?

Edited by KNO3, 02 October 2005 - 03:52 PM.

[The_Djinn]

KNO3, there is only one part of your post I wish to respond to and it is also down to the fact that you have called another member selfish as well as the following.. "because pyros selfishly want their supplyer all to themselves".
The person you called selfish does share information as well as supplies as do many of the other members on here. Mainly suppliers info or supplies are shared with people that have physicaly met at various events so people have gotten to know others on a personal basis and know who is to be trusted and who to be cautious of.
The main issue is that with some hard to get items it can take a long time to build relationships with suppliers so that you have access to an item, the last thing you need is some other user spoiling that relationship hence cutting of a supply source. Calling other members selfish is not going to help you in any way.

Mark

[KNO3]

Sorry, i didnt meen there to be a link between the word "selfish" and the person i quoted or even anybody on this forum, sorry for any confusion also typo: "not uncommon" was meant to be "uncommon", i was tired last night will edit.
I agree with you that pyros cant just spread information about thir supplyers for hard to get chemicals freely. But i do think that if another member askes someone about their supplyer, they should atleast consider the person, and as you said physically meeting the person is definetly a good idea, if it is plausable.
The reason i quoted that member was that i was worried that many people have stolen chemicals from schools. I do hope that you agree with me there, as those chemicalls are meant for getting people usefull and important qualifications in chemistry, and schools are already stretched economically. I was not insulting that person in any way, as that person was condemming the action aswell.
About selfish pyros i was most definetly not talking about anyone on this forum, this is the best pyrotechnic forum i have ever come across!
Very sorry for any confusion or offense taken!!!

[sasman]

Many Moons ago .. i think i was 11 or 12 ..I thought i discovered How to make BP..My grandads gardening shop had every thing i needed..

Initially i managed to get a few pound of Saltpeter..With no problems...Barbeque charcoal no probs same with the sulphur...But once i had started making some of this Green? Black powder.. A few of my so called friends liked it so much they decided to try make some ..

So off they went to my local gardening shop..Now they didnt go in & buy a bit of saltpeter one day then may be send in a mate to get the charcoal.. then the sulphur.. no they went in and asked for the lot all together.. ..and when the shop keeper asked "what are you doing with all this lot are you making Gunpowder??".. they said "YES"?? Stupid Gits!!!..

That was the end of my supplier..after that i had to pay Big lads to go and get it for me...and even then the shop keeper ended up knowing what they wanted it for and stopped it all together ..Even all my local chemists..stopped selling the little boxes of saltpeter.. and flowers of sulphur(Yes Chemists used to sell little boxes of KNO3 S etc.. i think it was THORNTONS brand) .. ..


So even at a very young age i learned to be parraniod about my suppliers..

My dad used to have a business that needed chemicals for his job and i always had easy access to any chemical i needed..

Also when i left School my 2nd job was working as a Lab technician at my local college..The moment i will always remember was when i was given the job of stock taking!! ..

This involved me looking through the entire stock list of chemicals..and if the chemicals were running low i had to reorder that particular chemical..Lets just say that they were running very low on most Pyro Chems...


My Chem supplier was still in business nearly 20 years later...Then just after i had restarted my intrest in pyro.. i ordered some nichrome wire.. & 25 Kg of KNO3 ..+ some other bits and bobs....Sods law steps in and this great chemical company.. goes bust ... (

Then i find this guy called chemikus( a german chemical supplier) i think my problems are over only to send him 100's of euros and get ripped off.. ..

I have asked a few members for there source of chems and if i get a negative repsonse i dont think there selfish...just cautious...

But the quote bellow sums up my feelings on the subject..

The main issue is that with some hard to get items it can take a long time to build relationships with suppliers so that you have access to an item, the last thing you need is some other user spoiling that relationship hence cutting of a supply source. Calling other members selfish is not going to help you in any way.

Mark

[KNO3]

Absoloutly, i agree with you totally! To reitterate, i was not calling anybody on this forum selfish. And being cautious is a good thing, protecting yourself, your supplyer and the querying person, but i do think that people should consider other people befor not giving them a response, thats why it would be nice if there was something that said that you could be trusted with that information, because as long as people order sensibly, there should not be too much of a problem.
I do hope that you paid for those chemicals you ordered for the school.