1235 replies to this topic

[DeAdFX]

Depending where you live, the shipping from Nitroparis will also cost some. I requested a quote some while ago, and I remember that the shipping here was going to be 200€ regardless of the amount of chemicals.

I know that nitroparis is located in spain but do they require you provide a lisence like an ATFE?

[Martin]

No, but they only sell to registered companies.

[Andrew]

I don't know about purchasing ammonium nitrate for making h.e but do any of you lot know what the maximum order quantity is for buying chemicals at hobbychem?

You see, the thing is, some months back I bought 300g of german dark, 250g of sulphur, 100g of magnalium and 200g of potassium perchlorate, the result was that I got my door bashed in by the police. I also bought some dextrin binder from the the chemical shop.
Anyway, I was arrested and my computer seized along with the chemicals and held for 10 hours in the clink and then released on bail. I felt i needed an explanation from hobbychem because i believed that they had duped me and alerted the police about my purchase. I was also told by my solicitor that that was probably the likeliest explanation for my arrest.

Two months later however, i was told that i would not be facing any charges. In the meantime, I have got to find £500 to have a new door fitted for which the police are reluctant to pay for: the thing that really frustrates me is i've only been in this hobby four months and i've already been arrested, not to mention feeling drained with frustration at whether I should quit or not...

Now I know why some of you diehards prefer fertilizers and milling to buying the bloody stuff.

I was going to say something about the CAPS, but after reading a few lines I can see why you'd want to shout about this.

I don't know the specifics but I can say that the police have guidelines that they are supposed to consult upon making a "Find". These guidelines give detailed instructions on what is and isn't suspicious, and what to do with just about any combination/size "Find". I can safely say that the police "Should" have in this case, treated the find as not suspicious on grounds of the very limited quantities involved. In practice however, as this case proves, very few front line officers even get to see these guidelines and ignorantly treat everyone as a terrorist.

On the 'new to' these chemicals are a bit extreme for the budding amateur.

trekkie.I suspect its not the quantity (although it probably did play apart) of the materials you bought but,what you bought.

The quantities/combination is not sufficient to class this find as suspicious; under official and ratified HO guidelines.

tIf (and its a BIG if) hobbychem did alert the authorities

Not as big an "IF" as one might think. you have to remember that Hobbychem is very new.

THIS IS JUST SPECULATION: But a new chemical supplier like Hobbychem probably does not adhere to the relevant legislation, whether that be HSE legislation or other things like the 'Data Protection Act'. The latter is of concern here. AGAIN THIS IS A REMINDER TO EVERYONE THAT THIS IS JUST SPECULATION: Should a new chemicals supplier like Hobbychem get 'raided' by say antiterrorism police, they might not know that they are breaking the law by just handing over their customer records; even in the presence of a warrant, the absolute releasing of complete customer records breaches the DPA and the ECHR.

Warrants must be specific. If the Police say, seize a computer and find other evidence that leads to the arrest and prosecution of a person and crime that were not the intended purpose of the initial warrant, this is what is called 'Collateral Intrusion' (if your proved innocent, but it's complicated). It can lead to quite severe cases being dropped on technicalities as to how the evidence was obtained (rendering that evidence insubmittable); there is plenty of case law to back this. If it turns out that the intrusion was against an innocent person, as in this case. Compensation is on the cards, and certainly the replacement of the door.

Also to bear in mind, you said that the chemicals were confiscated. Did the police remove the chemicals themselves? If so they were breaking the law and breaching official HO guidelines. They should have called in 'Scientific Services' to deal with the find. If they did call in 'Scientific Services', then they should also know about the HO guidelines on find quantities, and it would not be too presumptuous to assume that the guidelines were just ignored. Its important to state, that it is very difficult for the police, because mistakes can be made, because its impossible to educate all officers about all laws and guidelines.

With the door, even though there was a warrant (if not the police really screwed up), the destruction of the door was not necessary given the evidence to hand, the quantities only really warranted a knock at the door to gain entry, not smashing it in. I got a knock at the door for having several hundred kilos of chemicals (with a few mitigating circumstances though). You should also be looking to get your chemicals back as well as getting a new door, pointing out specifically that you intend to operate well within the confines of current legislation regarding the manufacture of explosives and that at the end of the day you are innocent.

Basically the way it works is a member of the public sees a supplier, and like a right Norman they call the police. The police do not actively seek out suppliers; too much time is involved. The police pay a visit and sometimes they get lucky; their presence alone intimidates the person into handing over the customer details without them even having to ask directly. This is intelligence gained legally.

One other thing sprung to mind. Did you say that you purchased something from "www.thechemicalshop.co.uk"? because this is probably the leak of your details if you did.

my god hobbychem is expensive

$9.65 for 100g of dark flake
$4 for 100g of pot.perc

Yes they are!

It's important to only buy from companies you trust. If your paranoid about your details and getting ripped off, make sure they are DPA registered and will protect your privacy accordingly, also make sure they adhere to all other necessary legislation and don't use Royal Mail for example to send hazardous chemicals.

The Brian Howes saga should have taught people a lesson. This is the guy alone with his partner, who ran KNO3.com and thechemicalshop.co.uk, and several others. Ludicrous prices and all customers got rewarded with a visit from the police!

[marble]

kno3.com was an interesting situation, many people (myself included) couldn't believe their eyes when we saw what they were offering for sale. With all the exotic goodies for sale it screamed 'government honeypot' but many people decided to be guinea pigs and ended up with their packages filled with red p, chloroform, mercury, nitric acid and iodine. In the end most of those people (those who resided in western country's) got a knock on the door as the operators got busted big time and turned everything over. Last thing i heard was that they were facing a long prison sentence and potential extradition to the USA as they reckoned they supplied enough iodine and red p for half a ton of meth or something like that.

Lucky i didn't place a order, anyone with a bit of common sense would have figured out that if someone is willing to post cans of mercury and nitric acid using airmail then something is very wrong

yep, they got reamed HARD

http://www.usdoj.gov...phnx013007.html

Edited by marble, 30 September 2007 - 11:03 AM.

[portfire]

Andrew.Can i just say,excellent post.I did forget to say in my post,that this was just my opinion but,I! found it suspicious that only after four month into this hobby and he's ordering pretty dam fine metal powders and perc..Oh well

dean

[trekkie]

I was going to say something about the CAPS, but after reading a few lines I can see why you'd want to shout about this.

I don't know the specifics but I can say that the police have guidelines that they are supposed to consult upon making a "Find". These guidelines give detailed instructions on what is and isn't suspicious, and what to do with just about any combination/size "Find". I can safely say that the police "Should" have in this case, treated the find as not suspicious on grounds of the very limited quantities involved. In practice however, as this case proves, very few front line officers even get to see these guidelines and ignorantly treat everyone as a terrorist.

On the 'new to' these chemicals are a bit extreme for the budding amateur.
The quantities/combination is not sufficient to class this find as suspicious; under official and ratified HO guidelines.
Not as big an "IF" as one might think. you have to remember that Hobbychem is very new.

THIS IS JUST SPECULATION: But a new chemical supplier like Hobbychem probably does not adhere to the relevant legislation, whether that be HSE legislation or other things like the 'Data Protection Act'. The latter is of concern here. AGAIN THIS IS A REMINDER TO EVERYONE THAT THIS IS JUST SPECULATION: Should a new chemicals supplier like Hobbychem get 'raided' by say antiterrorism police, they might not know that they are breaking the law by just handing over their customer records; even in the presence of a warrant, the absolute releasing of complete customer records breaches the DPA and the ECHR.

Warrants must be specific. If the Police say, seize a computer and find other evidence that leads to the arrest and prosecution of a person and crime that were not the intended purpose of the initial warrant, this is what is called 'Collateral Intrusion' (if your proved innocent, but it's complicated). It can lead to quite severe cases being dropped on technicalities as to how the evidence was obtained (rendering that evidence insubmittable); there is plenty of case law to back this. If it turns out that the intrusion was against an innocent person, as in this case. Compensation is on the cards, and certainly the replacement of the door.

Also to bear in mind, you said that the chemicals were confiscated. Did the police remove the chemicals themselves? If so they were breaking the law and breaching official HO guidelines. They should have called in 'Scientific Services' to deal with the find. If they did call in 'Scientific Services', then they should also know about the HO guidelines on find quantities, and it would not be too presumptuous to assume that the guidelines were just ignored. Its important to state, that it is very difficult for the police, because mistakes can be made, because its impossible to educate all officers about all laws and guidelines.

With the door, even though there was a warrant (if not the police really screwed up), the destruction of the door was not necessary given the evidence to hand, the quantities only really warranted a knock at the door to gain entry, not smashing it in. I got a knock at the door for having several hundred kilos of chemicals (with a few mitigating circumstances though). You should also be looking to get your chemicals back as well as getting a new door, pointing out specifically that you intend to operate well within the confines of current legislation regarding the manufacture of explosives and that at the end of the day you are innocent.

Basically the way it works is a member of the public sees a supplier, and like a right Norman they call the police. The police do not actively seek out suppliers; too much time is involved. The police pay a visit and sometimes they get lucky; their presence alone intimidates the person into handing over the customer details without them even having to ask directly. This is intelligence gained legally.

One other thing sprung to mind. Did you say that you purchased something from "www.thechemicalshop.co.uk"? because this is probably the leak of your details if you did.
Yes they are!

It's important to only buy from companies you trust. If your paranoid about your details and getting ripped off, make sure they are DPA registered and will protect your privacy accordingly, also make sure they adhere to all other necessary legislation and don't use Royal Mail for example to send hazardous chemicals.

The Brian Howes saga should have taught people a lesson. This is the guy alone with his partner, who ran KNO3.com and thechemicalshop.co.uk, and several others. Ludicrous prices and all customers got rewarded with a visit from the police!

[trekkie]

I was going to say something about the CAPS, but after reading a few lines I can see why you'd want to shout about this.

I don't know the specifics but I can say that the police have guidelines that they are supposed to consult upon making a "Find". These guidelines give detailed instructions on what is and isn't suspicious, and what to do with just about any combination/size "Find". I can safely say that the police "Should" have in this case, treated the find as not suspicious on grounds of the very limited quantities involved. In practice however, as this case proves, very few front line officers even get to see these guidelines and ignorantly treat everyone as a terrorist.

On the 'new to' these chemicals are a bit extreme for the budding amateur.
The quantities/combination is not sufficient to class this find as suspicious; under official and ratified HO guidelines.
Not as big an "IF" as one might think. you have to remember that Hobbychem is very new.

THIS IS JUST SPECULATION: But a new chemical supplier like Hobbychem probably does not adhere to the relevant legislation, whether that be HSE legislation or other things like the 'Data Protection Act'. The latter is of concern here. AGAIN THIS IS A REMINDER TO EVERYONE THAT THIS IS JUST SPECULATION: Should a new chemicals supplier like Hobbychem get 'raided' by say antiterrorism police, they might not know that they are breaking the law by just handing over their customer records; even in the presence of a warrant, the absolute releasing of complete customer records breaches the DPA and the ECHR.

Warrants must be specific. If the Police say, seize a computer and find other evidence that leads to the arrest and prosecution of a person and crime that were not the intended purpose of the initial warrant, this is what is called 'Collateral Intrusion' (if your proved innocent, but it's complicated). It can lead to quite severe cases being dropped on technicalities as to how the evidence was obtained (rendering that evidence insubmittable); there is plenty of case law to back this. If it turns out that the intrusion was against an innocent person, as in this case. Compensation is on the cards, and certainly the replacement of the door.

Also to bear in mind, you said that the chemicals were confiscated. Did the police remove the chemicals themselves? If so they were breaking the law and breaching official HO guidelines. They should have called in 'Scientific Services' to deal with the find. If they did call in 'Scientific Services', then they should also know about the HO guidelines on find quantities, and it would not be too presumptuous to assume that the guidelines were just ignored. Its important to state, that it is very difficult for the police, because mistakes can be made, because its impossible to educate all officers about all laws and guidelines.

With the door, even though there was a warrant (if not the police really screwed up), the destruction of the door was not necessary given the evidence to hand, the quantities only really warranted a knock at the door to gain entry, not smashing it in. I got a knock at the door for having several hundred kilos of chemicals (with a few mitigating circumstances though). You should also be looking to get your chemicals back as well as getting a new door, pointing out specifically that you intend to operate well within the confines of current legislation regarding the manufacture of explosives and that at the end of the day you are innocent.

Basically the way it works is a member of the public sees a supplier, and like a right Norman they call the police. The police do not actively seek out suppliers; too much time is involved. The police pay a visit and sometimes they get lucky; their presence alone intimidates the person into handing over the customer details without them even having to ask directly. This is intelligence gained legally.

One other thing sprung to mind. Did you say that you purchased something from "www.thechemicalshop.co.uk"? because this is probably the leak of your details if you did.
Yes they are!

It's important to only buy from companies you trust. If your paranoid about your details and getting ripped off, make sure they are DPA registered and will protect your privacy accordingly, also make sure they adhere to all other necessary legislation and don't use Royal Mail for example to send hazardous chemicals.

The Brian Howes saga should have taught people a lesson. This is the guy alone with his partner, who ran KNO3.com and thechemicalshop.co.uk, and several others. Ludicrous prices and all customers got rewarded with a visit from the police!

[trekkie]

Hi Andrew, thanks for posting your article

I was raided by an explosives search team from another division. They confiscated my chemicals and they told me that they would be sending them down to Kent for analysis. They even asked me to sign a disclaimer which i felt i had to sign.

The only stuff i bought from thechemicalshop was the dextrin binder which in itself is a harmless looking chemical, used as a food additive i believe.
To think they raided me for that is absurd and way over the top because how would i know they would be handing my details over to the police. That would be entrapment surely.

As for hobbychem, i thought they were a reputable supplier. I also emailed them regarding the matter and they have denied passing any details of mine to the police. On the other hand, they do send their parcels out by Royal Mail like you suggested, so it looks like they were after all responsible.

[Andrew]

I found it suspicious that only after four month into this hobby and he's ordering pretty dam fine metal powders and perc..Oh well

dean

To us yes I totally agree, that does look as dodge as fu*k. But to the lay person, and according to the HO guidelines there is nothing that stands out about the find. We only see it as dodge because we know the difference between a budding amateur, and an amateur better in the know than a professional. Sometimes we need to take a step back, or a couple hundred, to take an abstract view of what our hobby entails. But again, I cannot agree more, having those chemicals before basic pyro kit is just asking for trouble (in the injuries sense).

They even asked me to sign a disclaimer which i felt i had to sign.

Always seek legal advice before making any comments or signing anything, whether under arrest or not, ALWAYS. Just simply ask, what is it?, what is it for? and what does it mean for my legal status?. Finally inform the arresting/requesting officer that you want to seek legal advice before signing such a document. Also bear in mind that only an officer with 'executive powers' can ask you to sign such a document; ask to see a warrant card before signing and after getting legal advice to make sure you fully understand the implications of that you are signing.

As for hobbychem, i thought they were a reputable supplier. I also emailed them regarding the matter and they have denied passing any details of mine to the police. On the other hand, they do send their parcels out by Royal Mail like you suggested, so it looks like they were after all responsible.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions that fast, the guy at Hobbychem posts on this forum and seems honest and genuine (even if prices are super inflated, and he may be a little ignorant; stuff like Barium Nitrate ending up in Royal Mail for example). Over all I think people on the forum hold him in high regards. If he says that he didn't, in all likelihood, there isn't too much of a reason to doubt it. The thing with thechemicalshop.co.uk, is that they got DONE a while ago, and I'm guessing that all the leads they obtained are being followed up. However, one could argue that the intelligence was obtained illegally. In which case you have more than good grounds to claim back any expense you have incurred, let alone the fact you haven't done anything wrong. It is far more likely that the intelligence came from the seizure of computers belonging to the company/s behind KNO3.com etc. which you purchased from. In fact you were probably one of the last people to buy from there before it got shut down.

If you want to find out exactly how your personal details came to the attention of the police, ask them! They cannot refuse to tell you unless there are specific restriction in place, in which case they have to cite them and provide documentation proving it if asked. You can always spend a tenner and get the information through the 'Freedom of Information Act'.

That would be entrapment surely.

Entrapment in the UK and the US are slightly different. In the UK it does not mean much to the defence. There is what is called 'agent provocateur' which if used can be the undoing of any case as it is prohibited by UK law. Entrapment and 'agent provocateur' are different and in the UK the later is more important. Having a "honeypot" store would not class as such, however it would class as an illegal method of obtaining intelligence, as using the information gained would be a collateral intrusion and breach the DPA. When a warrant is issued for a sting operation like using a honeypot store, the requesting branch/officers must have reasonable grounds to suspect that it will obtain useful information for an existing investigation. The obtained intelligence can only be used against persons that are suspected of being involved within the original remit of the warrant. No warrant or RIPA application is approved unless there are specific goals and the necessary prevention of collateral intrusion is in place. Because of this, (you cannot get RIPA application approved for the investigation of the whole public), it is not possible for the police to legally operate an open covert honeypot store.

Edited by Andrew, 30 September 2007 - 04:40 PM.

[BrightStar]

trekkie,

You have been very unlucky here but this serves as a warning to others what not to do. Ordering from the chemicalshop.co.uk, a dodgy supplier, just as they were being shut down in a major international drugs operation was not good. Then with the authorities watching, you purchased too much Dark Al - enough to make 20,000 firecrackers, break 2000 crosettes or boost 300 aerial shells As Andrew says, this purchase was not illegal but could raise concerns.

Hobbychem is partly at fault - they really should not be selling Dark Al to beginners. Over the last 2 years I have used less than 10g in total and for me, that's plenty. It seems highly irresponsible that they should sell 300g to anyone without checks and warnings.

As a beginner there is a tried and tested path. Read everything you can find on fireworks making for 3 months. Buy some garden centre KNO3 and sulphur chips with willow charcoal from the local art shop, then work on making really good BP with a mortar and pestle. This will take at least another 3 months but you'll learn so much in the process and understand just what a few grams of a well made BP can do in stars, fountains, lifts and bursts.

Edited by BrightStar, 01 October 2007 - 07:51 AM.

[MDH]

my god hobbychem is expensive

$9.65 for 100g of dark flake
$4 for 100g of pot.perc

Well you realize we're talking about two micron aluminum which has undergone an extensive process involving integrating unburned carbons into molten aluminum.

I could use some of that to make nitrate flash for bursting small shells (.75")

[marble]

Well you realize we're talking about two micron aluminum which has undergone an extensive process involving integrating unburned carbons into molten aluminum.

I could use some of that to make nitrate flash for bursting small shells (.75")

I pay roughly $25 (12GBP) for 1lb of Indian flake. Going by hobbychem prices its $230 per kg - which is a total ripoff.

[trekkie]

I take what you say onboard, i really do. Thanks for the advice as i shall be following it up.

Still on the subject though, i can see why people jump in at the deep end with this. The reason is that 'flash' is so damn simple to make that doesn't require any apparatus, with the exception of a pair of scales.
Being only a begineer, i know i shouldn't be saying this but in this hobby, you have to start somewhere

[YT2095]

I know this may sound Harsh, but the police inadvertently Probably did you a favor!

now I`m not taking sides here between the powers that be and You, but I am taking the side of Safety! and you remaining Injury free is all the motive I need to say that.


there`s no way of knowing what will happen in the future, but an educated Guess..... let`s just say that paying the 500 quid is Cheap compared to the likely alternative.

and please don`t think I`m uncaring for saying that! I too have had the door smashed in (for something else) and there was Nothing even to Find! wrong Address! and my wife was Pregnant at the time, so I DO Know how you feel, and Then Some!

[Asteroid]

So you were unlucky, but don't let this put you off pyro, it's such a great hobby. At least you have a little more experience for next time!

Wow Andrew, a rocket scientist and a lawyer?