22 replies to this topic

[KNOw3]

Hi, I'm a new member here. I searched for the answer to both questions in the forums, but did not find them.

1. Is it possible to increase the power of traditional black powder by replacing KNO3 with perc and adjusting the ratios accordingly? Has anyone tried this, and if so, what is the stability and senstivity you have observed?

2. Will iron oxide added to traditional BP act as a catalyst, speeding the reaction?


If BP could be modified in either way while still retaining its *relative* safe disposition, what are your thoughts about using it as burst charge?


Thanks,


P.S. I suppose that neither suggestion will make a difference if the C-burning (i.e. heat propagation) is the limiting factor?

[Andrew]

Replacing KNO3 with perc would increase it's power, you'd have to change the ratios as you mentioned. However, there are not many sources of perc that you can guaranty will have no chlorate in. As you probably KNOw already, sorry could not resist, chlorate and sulphur do not mix. On a similar note perc and sulphur, although a lot more stable than chlorate and sulphur, is still more sensitive than normal BP, can't tell you how much because I've never tried it before. On the catalyst note, not all materials will act as catalysts in all reactions, rust might work, you'd have to do some scientific tests to see if it does have an impact. There are numerous other more powerful catalysts, MnO2 and V2O5 for example. In my opinion, Grain Powder is pretty good as a burst, it's also cheap. With a more powerful burst, you could fit more stars in and use less etc. But it would still be many times more expensive.

[Yugen-biki]

1. You can't replace the KNO3 with KClO4 and still call it BP.
It is more like KP, used for burst.

2. I don't think it will improve the BP. The reaction is allready very fast with help from the sulphur.

There is really no need for a powder faster than BP, and there is not really any substitutes to be found for BP.

I can understand you if you never have successfully made good BP. You will try to find ways to imrove the BP, and a lot of peolpe before you have tried to substitute the KNO3. But that's a bad id?a. Chemical instabilities and stuff...
If you have good quallity BP you'll know it?s power, and you don't need to find a way to improve it.

The moderators here are not very fond of this subject I assume ("chlorate BP" that is), and I understand them.

Other ways to improve the BP, like ball milling, are found in this forum.

[KNOw3]

I understand, Yugen-biki. I am not trying to be controversial here. But please understand the point of my asking...

a) Many in these forums are suggesting small amounts of flash (<2g) to augment burst charge in small aerials. I was wondering if this might be a nice substitute that eliminates some of the dangers of flash...
Several posts refer to perc-based flash that use small amounts of sulfur, which is known to sensitize it. Therefore, perc + S appears to be suitable without the presence of C?
c) Of course BP is powerful! I am only restating what has been stated times before - small shells may require the hulls/ricing method if BP is exclusively used as the burst charge.

Finally, NO I am not querying re: chlorate BP but PERchlorate BP.


Cheers,

1. You can't replace the KNO3 with KClO4 and still call it BP.
It is more like KP, used for burst.

2. I don't think it will improve the BP. The reaction is allready very fast with help from the sulphur.

There is really no need for a powder faster than BP, and there is not really any substitutes to be found for BP.

I can understand you if you never have successfully made good BP. You will try to find ways to imrove the BP, and a lot of peolpe before you have tried to substitute the KNO3. But that's a bad id?a. Chemical instabilities and stuff...
If you have good quallity BP you'll know it?s power, and you don't need to find a way to improve it.

The moderators here are not very fond of this subject I assume ("chlorate BP" that is), and I understand them.

Other ways to improve the BP, like ball milling, are found in this forum.

[Yugen-biki]

OK

Boosting small shells with flash or whistle is one way to power up the burst. But It seems as if many people use BP as burst, and not H3 or KP. Even in small shells, and thus needs a booster to make the shells performe. Especially smaller shells like 2 inch.

But there is allready burst charges devemloped and tested, like KP and H3. Personally I use H3, but when my chlorate is used up, I'm never going to make it again. Chlorate and the whole load of problems most people know about by now...
I believe that KP can be used for all sized shells, with a booster for the smaller shell from 3" and below. And KP is close to "perchlorate BP".
I try to stay away from sulphur when it is not absolutely needed.

There is not really any burst developed for very small shells around 2". But I know that the "Chinese" shell builders use a flash like compostion. With slower burning metal fuel or mixed with another fuel.

I don't really know a lot about flash bags and similar because I have only used H3 until now.

[KNOw3]

Very good info! Thank you!

OK 

Boosting small shells with flash or whistle is one way to power up the burst. But It seems as if many people use BP as burst, and not H3 or KP. Even in small shells, and thus needs a booster to make the shells performe. Especially smaller shells like 2 inch.

But there is allready burst charges devemloped and tested, like KP and H3. Personally I use H3, but when my chlorate is used up, I'm never going to make it again. Chlorate and the whole load of problems most people know about by now...
I believe that KP can be used for all sized shells, with a booster for the smaller shell from 3" and below. And KP is close to "perchlorate BP".
I try to stay away from sulphur when it is not absolutely needed.

There is not really any burst developed for very small shells around 2". But I know that the "Chinese" shell builders use a flash like compostion. With slower burning metal fuel or mixed with another fuel.

I don't really know a lot about flash bags and similar because I have only used H3 until now.

[BigG]

OK?

Boosting small shells with flash or whistle is one way to power up the burst. But It seems as if many people use BP as burst, and not H3 or KP. Even in small shells, and thus needs a booster to make the shells performe. Especially smaller shells like 2 inch.

But there is allready burst charges devemloped and tested, like KP and H3. Personally I use H3, but when my chlorate is used up, I'm never going to make it again. Chlorate and the whole load of problems most people know about by now...
I believe that KP can be used for all sized shells, with a booster for the smaller shell from 3" and below. And KP is close to "perchlorate BP".
I try to stay away from sulphur when it is not absolutely needed.

There is not really any burst developed for very small shells around 2". But I know that the "Chinese" shell builders use a flash like compostion. With slower burning metal fuel or mixed with another fuel.

I don't really know a lot about flash bags and similar because I have only used H3 until now.

That is not totaly correct. We know today that KP is SLOWER then BP. KP become faster then BP when strongly confined. That means that in order to make KP usful you will need to paste your small shell using more layers then common for that size. KP is mostly used in the three to four inch with additional paper layers.

To replace flash in very small shells, use whistle mixture that are based on sodium or pottasium benzoate. Those are vey close in power to flash - and are by far less sensetive. Thay also do not create the bright flash that sometime degrade the general quality of the effect like flash does.

Edited by BigG, 29 June 2005 - 10:24 PM.

[Douchermann]

Not all flashpowders are sensitive. 70:30 flash is really hard to set off, even with an open flame. And thats with 2 micron aluminum, and high purity KClO4. Personally i like H3 better than KP

[BigG]

Not all flashpowders are sensitive.  70:30 flash is really hard to set off, even with an open flame.  And thats with 2 micron aluminum, and high purity KClO4.  Personally i like H3 better than KP

REALLY? 70:30 is not sensetive? Are you OUT OF YOUR MIND?!?!?

Flash 70:30 is VERY sensitive. Sensitivity is not measured by how hard it is to ignite with a flame. Flash 70:30 is the flash that ignited in last year PGI from a mare friction between a nail in a persons shoe and a stone on a desert floor. It's the same flash that means three people now have a few lass body parts and their hearing and eyesight will never be the same.

Douchemann - if you intend to make posts like this into the forum - we will have to consider if you entitled to post at all. I also point that if you intend to recommend H3 to members, you should do while pointing to the many compatibility problems with chlorate.

Trust me ? this is just a gentle warning.

[Richard H]

Please do not underestimate the power of flash powders, while 70:30 Perc based flash is the industry standard, it is still mixed in VERY small amounts on a commercial scale. Most flash powders are sensitive to friction, shock, static electricity, and a direct flame.

There have been some terrible accidents with the 70:30 composition.

[Douchermann]

were talking about 70 potassium perchlorate and 30 german dark aluminum here, right? because i've done multiple sensitivity tests with that arnt matchbook oriented. I have put less than a gram on the ground, and ground at it with steel pieces, iron pieces, i've even made sparks with flint ans steel on it, i've whacked it with a hammer too. I put another ammount between two pieces of find sand paper (the course ones wont move when they are together) and ground them together till my wrists hurt and still nothing. Also, you mean to tell me that after an explosion they can tell that a nail in someones shoe was able to set it off? now how can they find what has been set on fire and burnt up, and how can they tell it was a nail in a shoe. If you are just gonna threaten me about banning me then i'll leave, i can still post in the other 5 forums i belong too.

[Richard H]

Just because you have not been able to ignite a sample of flash powder by doing various things to it does not mean you are correct. Numerous tests, performed in highly controlled conditions such as the BAM Fallhammer test, Rotter impact test, BAM, Rotary and Mallet friction tests have repeatedly shown that 70:30 Perc flash powder is sensitive.

Just because 9 times out of 10 an accident does not occur, does not mean it will never occur. Ignorance and familiarity breeds contempt! Accidents are often caused not by one event, but a number of events coming together at the same time with catastrophic consequence. I suggest you research the PGI article, and learn more about the incident before you try to rubbish it on totally false grounds.

To be honest I think you have a totally wrong attitude towards handling energetic materials, and it is only a matter of time before you get hurt. I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I'm not trying to belittle you, I call it how I see it.

Just my 2 pence.

[BigG]

If you are just gonna threaten me about banning me then i'll leave, i can still post in the other 5 forums i belong too.

You are nothing short of unbelievable. Do you want me to put you in touch with one of those three guy that is still capable of communicating? How you - with your amazing home tests (I actually had to read it twice to do drink a stiff one to stop shaking) - are taking on lab tests made all over the world?

Or maybe you want me to put you in touch with a manufacture that will tell you how suicidal you are?

You are really not making us worry by threating to walk away - we will not shad a tear. This forum has always took pride of it's sound advise - and you recent posts do not follow that line.

[Douchermann]

This forum has always took pride of it's sound advise - and you recent posts do not follow that line.

My most recent posts, eh? Now are you talking about the posts in this topic? Because I can account for all of them, and as far as i can remember, none of my other posts described something unsafe, just tips that you can use or throw away. I've also asked questions about stuff like magnalium. So which post was it, was it the one where i suggested something to give a better report in aerial shells? or maybe it was the one where i asked if i could just use a MgAl mix as magnalium, which now i know i cant. BigG, i don't know what you have against me, but i came here with an open mind thinking everyone here was knowledgeable. I still think that. But on my second post, you told me to get rid of a link, that you didn't even have to click! Even if you did click it, there was more LE discusion on that forum than the kind you guys don't like. I still have nothing against you.

About this, there might have been a misunderstanding, richard on what i meant. I know I said 70:30 flash isn't sensitive, but my idea about how sensitive something is, compared to someone elses idea on sensitivity may be completely different. Its just that comparably to other flashes (namely Mg flash) I have not found it as sensitive
I completely agree with you on the small sample thing. From now on i will be more specific in my posts and keeping in my that my views are different from others. Its just that comparably to other flashes (namely Mg flash) I have not found it as sensitive

Edited by Douchermann, 01 July 2005 - 11:13 PM.

[BigG]

My most recent posts, eh? Now are you talking about the posts in this topic?  Because I can account for all of them, and as far as i can remember, none of my other posts described something unsafe, just tips that you can use or throw away.  I've also asked questions about stuff like magnalium.  So which post was it, was it the one where i suggested something to give a better report in aerial shells? or maybe it was the one where i asked if i could just use a MgAl mix as magnalium, which now i know i cant.  BigG, i don't know what you have against me, but i came here with an open mind thinking everyone here was knowledgeable.  I still think that.  But on my second post, you told me to get rid of a link, that you didn't even have to click!  Even if you did click it, there was more LE discusion on that forum than the kind you guys don't like.  I still have nothing against you.

About this, there might have been a misunderstanding, richard on what i meant.  I know I said 70:30 flash isn't sensitive, but my idea about how sensitive something is, compared to someone elses idea on sensitivity may be completely different.  Its just that comparably to other flashes (namely Mg flash) I have not found it as sensitive
I completely agree with you on the small sample thing.  From now on i will be more specific in my posts and keeping in my that my views are different from others.  Its just that comparably to other flashes (namely Mg flash) I have not found it as sensitive

I refered to your posts in this thread. Douchermann - we don't have a problem with people sharing their knowledge or contributing new ideas. But your remarks on flash are so fundamentally wrong - so basic in their incorrectness - that I do not wish to think what might happen if a new member in the field will take them on. Just like the notion of having a 20g of flash in ANY device (for example, any fireworks that travel into europe - the maximum allowed flash per device is six grams - and that is plenty enough)

There are agreed measures in the explosive industry for friction and impact sensitivity ? and flash scores very high. So high that it is never screened together, have severe limits on the amount that can be mixed at a given time, and cleanliness requirement that are at the top of the scale. This is not just a mistake ? it is a very serious mistake that can cause lost of life, and if someone that MIXES it makes such claims about it ? we as administrators and moderators have to put our foot down very aggressively.

The BPS is trying to register as company to represent public and enthusiasts in the field. As such, it?s forums are different then others. While the BPS keeps away from making the connection between member posting and its operation ? to some degree this forum are a window of presentation of our quality to the outside world ? including HSE and other government offices. We can?t allow such irresponsible postings to show up without respond.

This is not me against you. I think if you will browse long enough you will see that other members have been told off in the past - including myself.