29 replies to this topic

[Electron]

Extra Charcoal would make the mixture slower, perhaps adding more KNO3 would speed up the reaction.

In my experience with KNO3/Sucrose as propellant, adding a small percentage of charcoal noticably increases the burn rate of a 65/35 mix. The added charcoal seems to reduce the amount of caramelisation that occurs. Mabey a very small percentage of added charcoal will do the same for a typical 50/50 mix? Of course, you could just use a propellant ratio to make a lot of smoke quickly, but this will cost more as more KNO3 is required, and it will be a little more hazardous than a 50/50 mix.

[Ghost_Walker]

have you tried mixing your smoke mixture with flash powder? and maybe use alittle more of an oxidizer, you have to be careful though..smoke quality depends on alot of factors: moisture, burn rate, granulation, etc. i never thought that smoke was so complicated till i started studying it....

If i might ask what is your application? Tactical, Entertainment, etc? I might be able to give more detailed info if i knew more about your problem

[Mumbles]

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I would tend to think that mixing smoke mix(comprised of KNO3 and sugar) with flash powder (comprised of aluminum and some oxidiser) is a bad idea. Even worse is melting them together. Al and KNO3 tend to react a bit. Heating them to 220C would probably increase the rate of this reaction. A mixture of sucrose and KNO3 is more hydroscopic than each of the components.

Perhaps you should just graduate past the inferior KNO3 and sucrose mix. The smoke in thin and whispy. If you had a thicker smoke it technically releases more smoke in the same time period.

The other thing I was thinking of was take your smoke mix and granulate it while it is still warm, or perhaps even wet it and dry it(or at least try to). I would think that the higher surface area would make it burn faster. Encasing it in a paper towel or bag would probably be best, otherwise it may burst a tube. I remember making small polumnas back in my very beginning days with it. It burnt pretty fast. I only got one salute out of about 20 tries, so obviously it is not the best but it may work for what you want.

[Ghost_Walker]

oh yeah i agree with graduating past the sugar/kno3 mix...i was more suggesting a smoke mix with either potassium perchlorate, or a potassium chlorate with sulfur flour and lots of sodium bicarbonate and alittle sucrose and a color die (military smoke mix)....however be careful with potassium chlorate and sulfur as you get acid with water and could ignite (hence the amount of sodium bicarbonate to keep moisture down, and i wouldnt recommend using chlorates AT ALL...)

as for using a denser smoke mix, be careful of the formula you use....typically the REALLY dense smokes are also toxic smokes...like HC smoke

if you dont want to buy the book...try calling firefox-fx and they have a ninja smoke mix...maybe they will tell you whats in it since they probably cant ship to you

i would look for a specific formulation...smokes are tricky and can be dangerous

Edited by Ghost_Walker, 14 November 2005 - 08:20 PM.

[miniskinny]

I make my own smoke canisters for playing paintball with. I use the "Candy Rocket" Propellent, which is baked in the oven. Not really a newbie formula, since it does require the baking of a flammable liquid/solid. But here's the website should you decide to try it out:

http://www.jamesyawn.com/rcandy/

He's quite well-experimented on this propellant, good stuff.

[adamw]

have you tried mixing your smoke mixture with flash powder?

Why would you want to do that? Smoke mix + flash power does not = fast smoke!
It could be dangerous too (KClO3 based smoke)

[completebeginner]

how would this work melt some sugar let it harden a bit until it becomes like a dough work the apropriate amount of kclo3 into it and press it through a screen? or is mixing kclo3 with sugar not going to be a good idea

[fishy1]

how would this work melt some sugar let it harden a bit until it becomes like a dough work the apropriate amount of kclo3 into it and press it through a screen? or is mixing kclo3 with sugar not going to be a good idea

have you ever worked with 1/2 melted sugar?
it goes from a liquid to a brittle solid pretty quick.

the kclo3 unless you heat it will cool the sugar down enough so it won't go through the screen.

and chlorates are bad enough as it is.


if you HAVE to use chlorates, heat up the sugar, melt it, take it off the heat, stir in kclo3 that's been preheated, then put it in a mold or something. then when it's cool smash it up into bits. this procedure is not recommended.

[littlejohny]

There have also been reports of KClo3/sugar mixtures detonating

[sizzle]

There have also been reports of KClo3/sugar mixtures detonating

Indeed, I had a bad experience with KClO3 and Sugar smoke mix myself a few months ago - thank god I moved my hand in time.

Edited by sizzle, 22 January 2006 - 05:29 PM.

[paul]

... then when it's cool smash it up into bits. this procedure is not recommended. ...

I think, KClO3/sugar molten together is worse enough. Smashing it up into bits is even worse man!


REALLY, don?t do it

[Plays with Fire]

does anyone know of any formulas for the smoke b**bs that instead of slowly giving off smoke it just gives it all off in one poof. any help is appreciated

Well, I recently tried using powdered (confectionary) sugar and powdered KNO3 without melting. I gave it some confinement, more than I usually do, and when the fuse burned down into the tube, the tube jumped around, with a few sparks out of that fuse hole, the POOF, all the somke came out at once as the container gave way. It was quite dense!

Don't give too much confinement though, we wouldn't want a p1p3 b**b!!! Because that would be *very* bad !

-Plays with Fire

[alany]

I guess you've never seen the lab demonstration where a M&M is dropped into molten Potassium Chlorate... Its rather spectacular to say the least! Sure Potassium Chlorate melts at about 370 degrees C, sugar much lower, but that is still not much of a safety window with the conditions reversed IMO. Potassium Chlorate is especially trecherous stuff.

Don't try this BTW, molten Potassium Chlorate has been know to *detonate* when small amounts of fuel are added, especially above 400 degrees where it boils as it decomposes.

[EnigmaticBiker]

does anyone know of any formulas for the smoke b**bs that instead of slowly giving off smoke it just gives it all off in one poof. any help is appreciated

Ammonium Chloride produces white smoke fast, when heated it sublimes to ammonia and HCl gas, then recombines. (DO NOT mix with KClO3, potentially very unstable).

Zinc oxide (safe to handle, non toxic) has been mentioned as a smoke ingredient, although I don't have a tested composition. Probably ok with BP to lift it.

I've made some Zinc Nitrate for smoke experiments but not tried it yet (Really difficult to dry, hygroscopic)

2Zn(NO3)2 --> 2ZnO + 4(NO2) + O2 at approx 110 degC.

I don't have a composition for this one either, yet.

Both should give a dense white smoke.

Maybe containing a (BP + icing sugar?) composition on a paper plate or fast food (paper) container and running blackmatch across the whole mixture, covering the device with packing tissue taped in place, will give bigger surface area.

Melting KClO3 with any fuel is risky, is it really worth it?

Hope that's useful.

[Kayakujutsu]

you can make instant smoke clouds using a central charge of blackpowder with Titanium tetrachloride which when set off mixes with damp air it hydrolyzes readily, resulting in a dense white smoke consisting of droplets of hydrochloric acid and particles of titanium oxychloride.
The titanium tetrachloride smoke is irritant and unpleasant to breathe.
It is dispensed from aircraft to create vertical smoke curtains, and during World War II it was a favorite smoke generation agent on warships.