11 replies to this topic

[mnementh]

Hi guys,
I have posted very little, being content to glean as much knowledge as possible.

I have a couple of questions and hope you can assist me;

1) Given that Guy Fawkes night is almost here and most pyro stock gets used. Does everyone immediately start buying up all the Nitrate that suppliers have (Gardendirect, for example), or do you wait a few weeks?

I bought some concentrated Sulphuric acid the other week to set up an anodizing bath and given the grief I got, you'd think I tried to buy Nitroglycerine.

2) the host that PYROTEKNIX was on, appears to have gone belly up. Does PYROTEKNIX have another site yet and if so, would someone post the URL, please.

Adam Hart Davies, who does the "Local Heroes" program on discovery has been on for the last couple of days, doing a Guy Fawkes special and one of the bits got me thinking about ball milling black powder.

He had some powder, made as per Roger Bacon's formula of 7:5:5 (KNO3:C:S). This proved very difficult to ignite and burned very slowly, compared to modern powder, made to the optimal formula.

As, if I read things correctly, ball milling black powder is mainly to get some of the Nitrate particles into the porous Charcoal, thus favouring fast reaction. However, a number of posts have commented on the possibility (albeit small) of the ball mill exploding, while milling.

Given the difficulty of ignition and the very slow burn of the incorrect mix, would it not be feasible to use a very Oxygen reduced mix (but with SOME Nitrate), to get the same intimate mix of Nitrate and Charcoal but hugely reducing the likelihood of an explosion. Simple mixing of the rest of the Nitrate, in a drum, would be good enough at a later point???

Also on this program, he showed a simple machine for making safety fuse. Visco, here we come?

Thanks, in advance,
Sandy
Oops. just had a quick look and the prog is on UKTVHistory. It's just finished but will almost certainly be back on again.

Edited by mnementh, 01 November 2005 - 06:31 PM.

[mnementh]

C'mon guys,
51 views and not one single reply.

Surely to god, someone out there must have an opinion???

Sany

[seymour]

Ball milling is to reduce the particle size of the chemicals, and for the hobbiest there is basicly no other option, unless you can buy airfloat charcoal, where by you can make it by the precipitation method.

I know that is can be difficult starting out, what with the enormous quantity of information to learn and all the falce or unreliable information out there, but I think you need to do some more gleaning.

By the way, good luck.

[RegimentalPyro]

C'mon guys,
51 views and not one single reply.

Surely to god, someone out there must have an opinion???

Sany

Sorry mate - Of course we do. It's just a bit of a busy time for use all. OK.

First of all Nitrate supplies do not tend to get used up, either now or at other times of the year. GD sell 25Kg bags, and that's about 2 years supply for a hardened pyro. Compared to the gardeners we're peanuts!


The populace regards chemistry as witchcraft. Anybody practicing it is viewed with fear and suspicion. One of the great hurdles we face is being seen as fluffy and friendly instead of secretive and suspicious. Try working out which drain cleaner is 80% conc. sulphuric instead of asking for it instead.

Don't know about the PYROTEKNIX site - sorry

Your theory on the mixing of the nitrate sounds feasible, but it would be difficult to prove it's safer.
How would you measure it? Ball mill 20,000 times using both methods and see which method has the most accidents? The best you could hope for is to see if your method produces the same quality BP as the normal ballmilling method. I'd be interested to know the results of that as well. My money's on the traditional method but I've been wrong before.

[Pretty green flames]

Teknix moved his site to another server.
Here it is. Pyroteknix

[mnementh]

HI guys,
thanks for the replies. All info is welcome.

PGF, many thanks for PYROTEKNIX URL. I searched for ages, using evry search engine I could think off but couldn't find it.

Hope you got your Aluminium bar, by the way.

Pyro;
my problem with the H2SO4 was that it used to be SO EASY to get, at the concentration I was looking for. I don't actually need conc. acid for the anodizing bath, just 20% - 25% and battery acid from Halfords, etc. was in plentiful supply. It seems the PC, do gooder brigade have seen to it that we poor, incapable folk (I'm a school DUX medallist in Chemistry, by the way), can't be trusted with such dangerous things.

I hunted all over the place for the acid and explained what I wanted it for and finally got offered the conc. acid by a small company in town. They couldn't supply the 25% chemical??

Learning all the time, by the way. I always thought drain cleaner was Caustic Soda based?


Onyhoo, thanks again for the r3plies at this busy time and hope you and everyone else has an excellent time tomorrow.

Sandy

[Draco_Americanus]

Here in the states you can buy H2SO4 based drain opener right along side the caustic soda based stuff, just look for the bottle with a bag around it and acid burns on the surface it's sitting on.

Now on the other topic. Here in the states the stigma about this hobby is bad as well. People seem to have this idea that people that play with fire are anti-social nuts that wet the bed, abuse animals and want to blow up the world.
That aside you can and will spend hours reading and surching the net for info and IMHO this place is your best start.

[mnementh]

Hi Draco,
thanks for the info.

Nice to find another dragon nut.

Sandy

[adamw]

Hmm some potentially dodgy stuff on that site, but at least it puts in across in a chemistry-oriented way instead of the 'KB' way.

[curious aardvark]

No real comment on the h2so4, but as for ball milling I reckon I'm doing it wrong.
Used the standard 75:15:10 comp - weighed and everything. I've milled the crap 3 times, crunched it up milled it etc and it's still pretty useless unless you leave it lumps. I used to make bp by grinding the ingredients under acetone, compared to my ball milling that was much more effective.
I do believe I'm using much to pure carbon (it's carbon black) - so on that point don't get carbon float use charcoaled lumps of wood.
Got a good sized firepit now so I'll be having a go at charcoaling wood some time over the winter :-)
But as far as ball milling goes - don't use ultrafine carbon.

[karlfoxman]

No real comment on the h2so4, but as for ball milling I reckon I'm doing it wrong.
Used the standard 75:15:10 comp - weighed and everything. I've milled the crap 3 times, crunched it up milled it etc and it's still pretty useless unless you leave it lumps. I used to make bp by grinding the ingredients under acetone, compared to my ball milling that was much more effective.
I do believe I'm using much to pure carbon (it's carbon black) - so on that point don't get carbon float use charcoaled lumps of wood.
Got a good sized firepit now so I'll be having a go at charcoaling wood some time over the winter :-)
But as far as ball milling goes - don't use ultrafine carbon.

Carbon black would surely be awful for making bp, my first ever ball milling went fantastic i used willow charcoal from a well know supplier. Carbon black will not make good black powder. Get yourself some real charcoal either by making it the correct way or by buying it. As i recal i got it for 7.50 per kg thats pine or wilow

[fishy1]

No real comment on the h2so4, but as for ball milling I reckon I'm doing it wrong.
Used the standard 75:15:10 comp - weighed and everything. I've milled the crap 3 times, crunched it up milled it etc and it's still pretty useless unless you leave it lumps. I used to make bp by grinding the ingredients under acetone, compared to my ball milling that was much more effective.
I do believe I'm using much to pure carbon (it's carbon black) - so on that point don't get carbon float use charcoaled lumps of wood.
Got a good sized firepit now so I'll be having a go at charcoaling wood some time over the winter :-)
But as far as ball milling goes - don't use ultrafine carbon.

use charcoal, otherwise it wont work.
something to do with violates [moderators edit:] volatiles in the wood.

Edited by RegimentalPyro, 10 November 2005 - 04:11 PM.