32 replies to this topic

[zookeeper]

How popular are computer controlled pyromusicals in the UK? In the US it is getting to be a necessity for some displays. For example, the company I work for in New York has to use a Fire One system to shoot one show, or else the customer will use a different company, a very expensive venture

What types of electrical firing systems, computer and manual, are used in the UK?

Popular systems in the US:
Fire One
Pyromate
Pyrodigital

I'm interested to know, because I believe that with some personal talent, I think that you can make a manual electrically fired show look just as good as a computer fired show.

[MFX]

I'm interested to know, because I believe that with some personal talent, I think that you can make a manual electrically fired show look just as good as a computer fired show.

Mike who runs the World Famous Fireworks who I do some work for doesn't trust computer based systems at all, he doesn't even like using the micro controlled chase unit I built for him but he see's it as a necissary evil . He does musical shows and has manually fired at competitions with very good accuracy. Another big reason he manually fires is many of his shows are of an "organic" nature having fire sculptures, human performers and other set pieces and so shows often don't run exactly to time. If you're doing straight shell chucking to music and you really trust your equipment then fine but I personally prefer the character of manual shows. One warning, I won't name the firing system as I don't really know whether it was a system problem or human error, but it was one of the ones you listed, was used by a friend on a live TV show, he pressed GO and nothing happened! It appears the desk had "forgotten" the show. You don't get that with a nailboard! Not to imply that Mike uses a nailboard, he uses a semi-electronic desk but it doesn't have any automatic firing facility.

Edited by MFX, 12 January 2006 - 07:03 PM.

[zookeeper]

Mike who runs the World Famous Fireworks who I do some work for doesn't trust computer based systems at all, he doesn't even like using the micro controlled chase unit I built for him but he see's it as a necissary evil .

Computers can do some cool things that would be difficult to do by hand, but I have found that a 'hybrid' show, consisting of some manual electric fire and some hand fire with radio communication can be just as good and a little more cost effective for the customer.

I personally use many timing chains, and a product called 'pyroclock' (do you have this in UK?)

I like all the great 'gag' names for computer fire systems:

Fire NONE
PyroFLAKE

...and my personal fav.

PYRO DIDN"T AT ALL

Maybe I'm just a little old fashioned, but fireworks have been fine without computers for about 4000 years.

[MFX]

I personally use many timing chains, and a product called 'pyroclock' (do you have this in UK?)

I like all the great 'gag' names for computer fire systems:

Fire NONE
PyroFLAKE

...and my personal fav.

PYRO DIDN"T AT ALL

Maybe I'm just a little old fashioned, but fireworks have been fine without computers for about 4000 years.

I think we're about to get some pyroclocks in to try, we had a gig recently where 5 racks failed halfway through because the PIC simply stopped! No obvious reason why, no gaps in the PIC etc. I think we're sending the roll back to ICI for investigation. I like those gag names unfortunatly scaringly close to the truth for my liking! There's a lot to be said for not putting all your eggs in one basket. On high profile gigs we generaly take two desks that internally work in different ways but still drive the same field boxes, fast chases are farmed out to in the field chase units. That way hopefully a failure of part of the system won't take your whole display down and you can still put on a show of some description at least! In fact the way our field boxes are now designed, as a last resort a display could in theory be hand fired by crew in the field with a small battery using the field box as a nailboard! although we haven't had to do that yet and hopefully never will !

Edited by MFX, 13 January 2006 - 02:33 PM.

[The_Djinn]

My 2p's worth

I love doing the large fireone / firelite shows because I get a chance to see a lot of the show but... nothing beats going back to basics and doing a good "up close and personal" hand fiered show.. what a buzz.

Mark

[zookeeper]

My 2p's worth

I love doing the large fireone / firelite shows because I get a chance to see a lot of the show
Mark

My crew loves a good automated show, but usually I'm too busy watching the screens for signs of a computer crash, or making sure the computer is firing the correct cues.

I enjoy letting some of the 'newer' shooters hand fire the show, and I get to enjoy the display. I can also spend more time evaluating each effect, and watching for fallout or malfunctions.


What do you guys think of wireless firing systems?

[MFX]

What do you guys think of wireless firing systems?

I've posted my views elsewhere, but briefly, I see them as a necissary evil again. Use them where a wired system is impossible but don't trust an entire show to one. I can't really slag wireless systems off too much as I've built and use three of them and am designing another one at the moment

[zookeeper]

I've built and use three of them and am designing another one at the moment

Please, do tell more about these systems...

My 2p's worth

hand fiered show.. what a buzz.

Mark

I find that hand firing large numbers of 6" shells gives me quite the headache

[pyrotrev]

I think we're about to get some pyroclocks in to try, we had a gig recently where 5 racks failed halfway through because the PIC simply stopped! No obvious reason why, no gaps in the PIC etc. I think we're sending the roll back to ICI for investigation.

I've had Pyroclock fail a couple of times too: halfway through the chain (or should I call it stack?) one of the Bickford inserts just didn't light . Also don't assume it's very waterproof, 'coz it's not, you need to tape all joints.

[MFX]

Please, do tell more about these systems...

First was more of a total rebuild of an existing commercially bought system due to it having unsafe/unreliable wiring It's a simple 27MHz system based on off the shelf Modules from ELSEMA in Australia (There was nothing unsafe about thier modules, just the aftermarket work that had been done by another company). The existing transmitters were small handheld units with membrane switches and no local arm/safety facility other than taking the battery out! also the only was to change the channel code was via fiddly dip switches inside the battery cover The new transmiter is built into a large Peli case with arm keyswitch and different channel codes can be selected simply by rotary switches. I also built a small handheld backup transmitter unit which only supports two channel codes.

I then built a second system using ELSEMA Gigalink modules which allow for far more hits per field box (The first one one had four hits per module, the new one has 8 but could have more) I've hacked ELSEMA's programming protocol so I can configure the field box code to be anything I want rather than the ELSEMA randomly selcted one. In fact I use the same radio modules as http://www.pyromate.com/gigalink.htm but because I can set whatever code I like in the recievers it makes programming by the user far easier and more versatile.

The third unit was a simple two hit unit for low risk stage pyro operating on 432MHz and used by Magicians and jugglers.

The current work in progress unit will use full duplex (So there will be feedback such as igniter, battery status, link quality, arm status etc.) Radio modems with 16 selectable radio channels so I can switch in case of local interference. Each unit can also act as a repeater to other units to extend range. The communication is simply 9600 Baud RS232 So I'm pretty much free to do whatever I want with them either via a PC (shiver ) or via a self contained microcontroller based unit. One plan to reduce the data I have to send is to implement simple commands such as "CH(ase) x,y,z" with x being the first hit, y being the last hit and z being the time delay between hits e.g. "CH 1,16,0.1 ", also to download parts of the show as sequences and fire them just by sending the sequence number, but still leave the ability to fire manualy as well (This bit still needs a bit of thought, but as I'm doing all the programming I can change how it works at any time). The use of this unit wouldn't be limited to pyro, it could also control lighting and other effects. I also want to build an interface unit to connect it to existing manual desks so that wireless hits can be hit from the same desk as the wired hits without having to switch desks.

[MFX]

Here's a photo of the transmitter for the first one I did, when I find photos of the others I'll post them, but my photos are a bit disorganised at the moment.

RF Desk

Edited by MFX, 17 January 2006 - 06:39 PM.

[MFX]

one of the Bickford inserts just didn't light

What you mean the actual igniter didn't fire? Did it still show continuity after the attempt? Was it in series with others and did they fire OK ? I ask because I was testing some igniters from different manufacturesrs recently and I fired a bickford one which didn't ignite but now shows open circuit, so the bridge wire fused but the pyrogen didn't light! IME Bickford igniters have always been very reliable but we do see to be getting a few failures recently and it would be nice to get to the bottom of whether it's an igniter problem or a firing system issue.

[adamw]

I think he means Bickford-type blasting fuse, not Davey ignitors.

[The_Djinn]

simple 27MHz system based ....

That made me shudder.. nearly every kids toy and CB radio etc runs on 27mhz ... would never have caught me anywhere near a radio device on that frequency... would definately leave long skid marks in my boxers.

Most of the new devices appear to be on a range of there own (dont ask because I dont know what it is) and nearly all are running encrypted signals to avoid being interfered with / set off by some other device withing its frequency range.

As MFX was saying previously.. radio modules are great for those hard to get to places where running wire to is near impossible or impracticle but stick to wire for the rest.

Mark

[MFX]

That made me shudder.. nearly every kids toy and CB radio etc runs on 27mhz ... would never have caught me anywhere near a radio device on that frequency... would definately leave long skid marks in my boxers.

27Mhz wouldn't be my first choice but I was working with an existing system that couldn't be replaced for sost reasons. That said, the power output of this system and the use of efficient aerial means it will generally overcome most cheap low power toys unless they were REALLY close. People keep thinking that just because something is on the same frequency it could cause stuff to go off when it shouldn't, however with proper modern coding the chances of this are probably close to winning the jackpot on the lottery several weeks in a row! You are much more likely to have stuff not fire when it should.

Most of the new devices appear to be on a range of there own (dont ask because I dont know what it is) and nearly all are running encrypted signals to avoid being interfered with / set off by some other device withing its frequency range.

It's simply not possible that they are "on a range of thier own" to be legal they will be sharing with any of the following :-

Car alarm remotes
Cordless house alarms/door bells
Baby monitors
CB radio's
Kids and other licence excempt walkie takies.
Wireless Lans
Wireless video senders
Radio microphones
etc.etc.etc.

If operating on other frequencies then you're likely to be competing with other much higher powered licenced transmissions such as minicabs and radio pagers, so not a good idea.

Encrypted signals only prevent something from going off when it shouldn't, they can do absolutely nothing to prevent failure due to radio interference on the same (or even nearby) channels. One danger to watch for is "reciever blocking" whereby a nearby very strong signal (just as a radio pager transmitter, which could be on ANY frequency, not just the one you're using) completely overloads your reciever and stops it working then there's intermodulation and so on. Good reciever design helps, but the end user generally dosen't know how good thier reciever is without access to very expensive test equipment.