64 replies to this topic

[seymour]

All this about the toxicity of these chems is quite scary! Mind you a few grams of BaNO3 is actualy quite alot to ingest by mistake. After reading this stuff about barium salts I have decided to use alternitave methods for green. After experimenting with KNO3 and sugar I think I am on to something! nice deep green

Edited by seymour, 19 April 2005 - 01:07 PM.

[aapua]

Now this is something new.

Try looking here.

http://www.jtbaker.c...hhtml/P5620.htm
Estimated lethal dose is 15-30grams

This can't be true. Even 5 grams given is a bit too much. The main thing how potassium chlorate reacts in organism is chemical reaction in stomach between potassium chlorate and HCl. In this case free chlorine gas, Cl2, releases in your stomach and I'm pretty sure that human tissue isn't strong enough to keep it in...

[Andrew]

Not to be promoting unsafe practices, but LD50 for table salt isn't a very big dose either.

Just for reference, you (average 75kg adult) would have to eat around 250 grams of table salt in one sitting to have a half chance of dying. Who the fu*k is even capable of eating a quarter of a kilo of salt??? There seems to be a lot of mis-reading of msds's going on. The unit for LD50 etc, is usually mg/Kg, that is milli grams of substance per kilogram of test subject. The lowest ever dose recorded to kill a human was around 1000mg/kg, that equates to around 80grams.

As this topic is about Barium salts, You would need to eat around
8 grams of Barium Chloride to kill 50% of 75ish kilo adults
24 grams or Barium Nitrate to kill 50% of 75ish kilo adults (a bit more than a few grams)

Although 8 grams seems very little, it is very difficult to bring your self to eat that much salt, just the taste would induce vomiting. You want to be more careful of Barium being absorbed through skin, cuts or other mucus membranes, or inhaling it.

The lowest recorded fatal dose of Barium Carbonate is 17mg/Kg, this was a child though. The lowest ever recorded fatal dose for an adult is 800mg/kg,

Personally I would not ever take the rather stupid risk of eating any chemicals. Good lab practice is essential if you are to minimise the risks. Appropriate dust masks are necessary if you are incapable of not raising a dust, like me some times. Gloves are a good idea if you have a cut or the chemicals are readily absorbed through the skin.

I would advise great caution in analysing LD50 data, the largest problem is that much of the data exists for rats, and they are pretty 'hard' when it comes to trying to kill them. If you ever see data for mice or "mini pigs" as a friend calls them, you will be shocked if you compare them to rats. The safety and risk phrases are more useful, to everyone, than the toxicological data.

You would probably want to be more wary about eating really toxic stuff like Vanadium Pentoxide. Openly available to the public, you would only need to ingest around 0.3 grams to kill 50% of 75kg adults.

[Old1953]

My point is that extreme measures aren't warranted with the usual pyro chems.

Potters use manganese, barium and strontium compounds with bare hands dipped into slurried chemicals, and seem to survive. It takes years of heavy exposure for a potter to get the manganese shakes.

I've severe doubts that anyone here is using that much of these compunds on a daily basis.

By all means, a simple dust mask should be worn when mixing dry barium or stontium or manganese compounds - expecially if the compound in question is a dust. A heavy duty chemical respirator is generally for aromatics, alcohol or acetone or perchloroethylene - and isn't good protection against dusts unless you add a dust filter cartridge over the usual chemical filters that most come provided with. They are expensive and the filters are expensive, and I can't see where the use is indicated for this level of exposure. (I do presume that we all have a day job, so to speak. Slight exposure every couple of weeks is not the same thing at all as heavy exposure every working day.) Paper masks are cheap, and generally take out 95% or more of any dusts, which is going to cut you down to almost zero exposure.

Given the nature of the compounds in question, a full plastic face shield is appropriate when pressing or ramming anything, and I hope everyone here knows that. A full body shield between you and a heavily pressed compound is something I'd call necessary too, but I'd wear the face shield anyhow.

As for lead or arsenic compounds - the use just isn't warranted any more. They are far more poisonous than the usual barium/strontium compounds, and there just isn't any justification for resurrecting those old comps at this time. For them, heavy protection levels would be more indicated.

MOF, I'd be more worried about inhaling some of the metallic dusts than inhaling a tiny bit of barium dust. Those metallic dusts aren't very toxic per se, but they play the very devil in your lungs. Lung nodules are no joke. Physical damage can be worse than chemical damage.

In a general sort of way, the most toxic chemicals commonly used in pyro are the color producing chemicals, next come the oxidizers, and finally the fuels.

That's before mixing, of course. After mixing it still isn't safe to eat, but it should be bound well enough to prevent dangerous amounts of dust from coming off the material.

As for the lead dioxide anode business, I have no intention of handling that stuff whatsoever, especially not as a powder glued to a plastic rod and then plated over in a lead nitrate bath, with a corroded copper connection on top of it. Just looking at the images of those things make me nervous. Which is what got me into the anode experimentation business in the first place, trying to find alternatives that can be produced by the home experimenter that will not be so poisonous that a child or dog finding one is nearly a sentence of death.

Edited by Old1953, 17 March 2005 - 03:20 PM.

[alany]

Arsenic and Lead in pyro aren't likely to be acute poisons, but soluble forms have roughly the same acute toxicity as soluble barium compounds. They aren't really *that* toxic. However I'd much rather be poisoned by Barium, it is easy to treat and leaves no long-term effects. Months of chelation therapy for heavy metal poisoning isn't very pleasent at all, and the neurological damage is pretty much permanent while the metabolic effects of Barium are gone in a day and the skeleton deposition is nothing to really worry about.

One thing I've always wondered is why sparklers aren't more controlled. There is a lethal dose of Barium Nitrate in a box of sparklers. And chewing on a single sparkler could do in a small animal or child. I guess they don't taste too nice, but I could see a child or dog chewing on one.

I too can't believe how easy it is to get Vanadium Pentoxide, it is horrendously toxic and a pretty colour too.

[Old1953]

Arsenic and Lead in pyro aren't likely to be acute poisons, but soluble forms have roughly the same acute toxicity as soluble barium compounds.  They aren't really *that* toxic.  However I'd much rather be poisoned by Barium, it is easy to treat and leaves no long-term effects.  Months of chelation therapy for heavy metal poisoning isn't very pleasent at all, and the neurological damage is pretty much permanent while the metabolic effects of Barium are gone in a day and the skeleton deposition is nothing to really worry about.

One thing I've always wondered is why sparklers aren't more controlled.  There is a lethal dose of Barium Nitrate in a box of sparklers.  And chewing on a single sparkler could do in a small animal or child.  I guess they don't taste too nice, but I could see a child or dog chewing on one.

I too can't believe how easy it is to get Vanadium Pentoxide, it is horrendously toxic and a pretty colour too.

Many years ago I managed to get myself into enough arsenate of lead to get sick from it. It wasn't much fun, but it was over with pretty quickly, I didn't get that much of a dose. I haven't trusted any lead compounds since.

They still apply it to golf courses in the US for grub control.

[mcfluffin]

Just out of curiositry from this talk about poisons, I have an old "medicine" bottle I was curious about. Its contents read:

500 Compressed Tablets
Sugar Coated Red

Iron and Mercury Compound
(Dr. Fiske)

Garanteed under the Food and Drugs Act
June 30, 1906
Serial No. 734

Iron by Hydrogen.......1gr
Mercury bichloride...1.6gr
Stryctnine Sulph......1.6gr
Arsenious Acid........1.8gr

Dose: 1 to 2 three times a day.

Manufactured by
The National Drug Company
Philadephia, PA

As these compounds are so poisonous(1gr=65mg I think), why would you take this? I have done some research but could not come up with anything, although I know many poisonous compounds are used for skin treatment. Btw, the bottle is still over half full if you want somthing yummy for breakfast...put it on some cereal or something.

[GuiltyCol]

a simple dust mask should be worn when mixing dry barium or stontium or manganese compounds

Ok just to be clear about 2 things. Are you saying that a simple B&Q dusk mask is suitable protection from the dust that these chemicals kick up? My understanding was that dust masks come in various grades, some being "finer" than others?

Are you also saying that dust masks are only applicable for these 2 chemicals and not required for anything else? Sorry to be a bore, but this thread gives me the heeby jeebies!

Edited by GuiltyCol, 14 November 2005 - 09:29 PM.

[Andrew]

They still apply it to golf courses in the US for grub control.

That's insane! do they have any idea how much cumulative damage they are causing to the environment, suppose they are from the US! I hope they enjoy their lead poisoning from the fish they eat, as well as the hurricanes.

Ok just to be clear about 2 things. Are you saying that a simple B&Q dusk mask is suitable protection from the dust that these chemicals kick up? My understanding was that dust masks come in various grades, some being "finer" than others?

Are you also saying that dust masks are only applicable for these 2 chemicals and not required for anything else? Sorry to be a bore, but this thread gives me the heeby jeebies!

On a Dust Mask point, the masks you can buy from B&Q that are referred to as comfort masks give no protection from anything at all. If you want a mask you really should spend a few pounds. You really do get what you pay for. For the chemicals we use in Pyro, most do not require protection, but for some the minimum rating on your mask should be ?P3?. This grade protects from very fine toxic dusts and mists, Don?t bother with P2 if you are working with anything toxic or harmful. The most important thing to do is use good lab practice and do not raise a dust.

[GuiltyCol]

the masks you can buy from B&Q that are referred to as comfort masks give no protection from anything at all.

Haha, having used them before, I can confirm that they are in no way comfortable! But thanks, will be on the look out for P3 masks.

Hmmm just thought I'd recheck my IPP which arrived the other day, and yep, thought I remembered correctly. From P5, Saftey Chapter: "A respirator should be used when performing an operation that might cause dusts to become airbourne. The simple paper face masks are inadequate to provide proper protection. Many DIY and paint stores sell good respirators for under $20"

[Mumbles]

I think he meant comfort meaning something there to make you feel more comfortable about working around said dusts but not actually providing proper protection. Comfort as in bringing a feeling of safety.

[Frozentech]

Haha, having used them before, I can confirm that they are in no way comfortable! But thanks, will be on the look out for P3 masks.

Hmmm just thought I'd recheck my IPP which arrived the other day, and yep, thought I remembered correctly. From P5, Saftey Chapter: "A respirator should be used when performing an operation that might cause dusts to become airbourne. The simple paper face masks are inadequate to provide proper protection. Many DIY and paint stores sell good respirators for under $20"

Having worked in some very toxic atmospheres, I can swear to the efficacy of those half face respirators with organic vapor cartridges, when used with a dust filter cap. I worked at the world's largest lead mine, where the 'concentrate storage' building held millions of pounds of lead and zinc compounds and regular blood-lead testing showed no ingestion.

A good respirator is cheap insurance. Although... mine is almost too good. I had some Ammonium Perchlorate react with Magnalium and didn't smell it until I removed the mask, but the heat gave it away.


Heh.. as I write this I keep hearing neighbors shooting stuff off, not sure if it's salutes or just gunshots, but it makes me jumpy, my first reaction is always that my shop is blowing up !

OK, I wandered far enough off topic... Soluble Barium salts.... I wish getting them shipped to me wasn't such a royal pain in the ass ! (back on topic

[GuiltyCol]

I think he meant comfort meaning something there to make you feel more comfortable about working around said dusts but not actually providing proper protection. Comfort as in bringing a feeling of safety.

Yes I realise that, my post was a joke, hence the use of the "Haha" prefix.

not sure if it's salutes or just gunshots,

Just gunshots! Really you guys across the pond have a real issue with guns. I think it's fair to say the average UK citizen would go their whole life without ever hearing a gun shot. Actually ignore me, I'm just jealous.

Anyway, to get back on topic (fear the delete police! ) with respirators, what are we talking about here? This sort of thing in rather fetching pink:



Which I'm guessing is not disimilar to this one:



Which comes with this in the description:

The included multi-gas cartridges, provides respiratory protection from certain organic vapors, chlorine, hydrogen chloride, sulfur dioxide, chlorine dioxide, hydrogen fluoride, ammonia, methylamine, formaldehyde or hydrogen sulfide (escape only) at concentrations up to 10 times the Permissible Exposure Limit (PEL) with half facepieces or 50 times PEL with full facepieces. Includes mask & 1 set of multi-gas cartridges.

And what exactly is a multi-gas cartridge? I assume that's the filter? And how would I know if it covers all the nasty gases I need it to?

And just to be clear, are we saying that these things are over the top?



And I think we're agreeing that these things are next to useless:




Apologies for all the images, but I'm not a mask expert, so pictures rather than words do a better job of explaining exactly what we're talking about, and as this is a safety discussion, I'd rather be crystal clear about it.

[portfire]

Hi folks

Right,i have some Ba(NO3)2 on order and need to ask a couple of safety questions...

I bought this respirator for working with perc mix's and wondering if its safe for Ba(NO3)2 ????




And another thing.I'v read that after working with soluble barium salts one should wash the work area down with a magnesium sulphate solution,turning Ba(NO3)2 to the insoluble BaSO4 ?,and while i'm in the habit of washing my clothes after being in the workshop,would a small amount of magnesium sulphate in with the washing powder be an extra precaution against contaminating anything ??


regards
dean

[YT2095]

I work with chems in the Lab regularly, from Hydrazine and Sodium Cyanide to distiled water and table salt.

you do meed to ingest quite an amount of Ba salts to do harm, and you WOULD Notice, the stuff tastes terrible!
Chlorates are also toxic, as are some trisulphides etc...

now unless you`re making Large amounts of fireworks in huge batches and kicking up lots of dust clouds there`s no need to wear anything beyond a fine mesh disposable dust mask.

I have a NATO Issue Avon S10 full face gas mask with Isreali NBC filters, and Only ever use that with things like Cyanides, H2S, Arsine, NOX, Phosphine, etc... as Gases.

in Pyro you should Never need Anything near that efficiency, it would be a waste of money! (looks cool on Hallow`en though).


Common sense and good Work Hygiene are worth 10x more than all the equipment you can throw at it. Sloppy can and Will Kill!

this is only MY opinion however, and not the entire story, just the bits that seem to Apply Now after seeing some of these masks