29 replies to this topic

[rob300zxz31]

Hi, a friend of mine and I are wanting to get back into pyro, but with the current state of parenoya this country is in i think it would be wise to check the law before proceding. So my question is, can I legally produce my own BP, and if so whats the limit on production? Regards, Rob.

[BigG]

Limit is 100g. Pure and simple. Anything more then that requires storage license and a license to purchase and keep (if you want to buy ready made BP). Those are not difficult to obtain, although the new MSER 2005 has brought a few problems about in that category. We will publish guidelines to society members when clarifications are made.

[pyromaniac303]

Limit is 100g

I was just reading this site:
www.met.police.uk/firearms-enquiries/explos4.htm

It says 550g but was wondering if they have got it wrong, or if the law has changed?

[damocov]

I think if you read that carefully that you'll find it's relating to the limit of what an individual container can hold within a wooden storage box!

The previous page on the met website covers the areas the the police licence and the starting quantity is listed as 0.1Kilos (100g)

The Police licensing of Storage can be divided into the following three categories:-

? Licensed 0.1 to 2000 Kilos of explosive
? Registered 0.1 to 30 Kilos of explosive
? Un licensed/Registered Up to 10 Kilo Black Powder,

though I am intrigued by the third category - does this indicate you don't need a licence for black powder - surely not!

[BigG]

I think if you read that carefully that you'll find it's relating to the limit of what an individual container can hold within a wooden storage box!

The previous page on the met website covers the areas the the police licence and the starting quantity is listed as 0.1Kilos (100g)
though I am intrigued by the third category - does this indicate you don't need a licence for black powder - surely not!

guys. this pages relate to storage. not production. Production is 100g and thats it.

We will publish simple explenation of the law in regarding to production and storage during the winter month.

[Andrew]

If your interested the relivant part of the new laws (MSER 2005), is as follows;

PART 3

LICENSING AND REGISTRATION REQUIREMENTS

Explosives not to be manufactured without a licence[/b]
9. - (1) Subject to paragraph (2), no person shall manufacture explosives unless he holds a licence for that manufacture and complies with the conditions of that licence.

(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to -

(a) the manufacture of explosives for the purpose of laboratory analysis, testing, demonstration or experimentation (but not for practical use or sale) where the total quantity of explosives being manufactured at any time does not exceed 100 grams, but nothing in this sub-paragraph shall be taken as authorising any acquisition or keeping of explosives for which an explosives certificate is required by virtue of regulation 7 of those Regulations, without such a certificate;


The bits in red are the most relevant parts.
The laws added to the statute continue for some considerable pages.


In lay terms, as already stated, you can make upto 100g for the practices associated with parts of this forum. Note that "practical use" includes use in a display, so makeing a device and setting it off in a safe manor is fine, showing it to friends is not (well a debateably grey area anyway, but I would not want to be the one to find out where a judge thinks the line lies!!!).


(EDIT: spelling mistake; probably more!)

Edited by Andrew, 29 September 2006 - 01:05 PM.

[Asteroid]

What is the definition of an explosive? Scientifically BP is not an explosive but does BP count as an explosive in the eyes of the law?

[BigG]

What is the definition of an explosive? Scientifically BP is not an explosive but does BP count as an explosive in the eyes of the law?

By law definition - any mixture of oxidizer and fuel is explosive (there are other types, but this is the one definition that is of interest to us). Yes, I know it?s a very broad definition - and the law give exemptions for a few commercial and agriculture mixes.

[Andrew]

According to MSER 2005;




"black powder" means an intimate mixture, with or without sulphur, of charcoal or other carbon with potassium nitrate or sodium nitrate, whether the mixture is in meal, granular, compressed or pelletised form, being an explosive substance allocated in accordance with the United Nations Recommendations the U.N. nos. 0027 or 0028;




Also in MSER 2005

Power to grant exemptions

26. - (1) Subject to paragraph (2), the Executive may, by a certificate in writing, exempt any person or class of persons or any explosive or class of explosives from any requirement or prohibition imposed by these Regulations, and any such exemption may be granted subject to such conditions and to a limit of time and may be revoked in writing at any time.






This is something that the UKPS may be looking into. So make sure everyone who feels an exemption may help their hobby, supports the cause.
I find it funny that the HSE is reffered to as "The Executive" by the statute, just what the Rev called them!

[EnigmaticBiker]

This is something that the UKPS may be looking into. So make sure everyone who feels an exemption may help their hobby, supports the cause.
I find it funny that the HSE is reffered to as "The Executive" by the statute, just what the Rev called them!

Exemptions looks like a feasible angle to take.

Yes, support the cause, if anyone reading this isn't in the UKPS, why the hell not? It's in your interest to further a serious group of enthusiasts.

"The Executive" as in "The Firm" and "The Family"; Not sure about "The Rev", taking the concept of "Hellfire" a little literally (sorry).

[Spudgun]

OK. SO to sum it all up the limit for anyone making BP without a manufacturing licence is 100g.
BUT, is a storage licence required to keep it? Sorry to ask this question again but I am so confused and think a place is needed to sum it all up. Why does the law have to be so vague
Thanks!

Edited by Spudgun, 13 November 2006 - 09:45 PM.

[starseeker]

Exemptions looks like a feasible angle to take.

Yes, support the cause, if anyone reading this isn't in the UKPS, why the hell not? It's in your interest to further a serious group of enthusiasts.

"The Executive" as in "The Firm" and "The Family"; Not sure about "The Rev", taking the concept of "Hellfire" a little literally (sorry).

I was reading somewhere on this forum the the rockectry guys and galls had excemptions for there hobby,but did not say what,so i have been wondering what they are? Can they legally make there fuel,{whistle,bp} and can they make and load stars etc for there headers?
Cheers in advance.

[BigG]

OK. SO to sum it all up the limit for anyone making BP without a manufacturing licence is 100g.
BUT, is a storage licence required to keep it? Sorry to ask this question again but I am so confused and think a place is needed to sum it all up. Why does the law have to be so vague
Thanks!

No. You can keep the 100g - although the expectation is that you are holding it for the minimal time required for your experiment (In short - you are allowed, but if you just keep it for no purpose someone might look at it as an activity that does not constitute an experiment).

Remember - the 100g rule specifically states that the 100g are manufactured for EXPERIMENT. The definition of an experiment is again a point of vagueness - but "I'm holding it in case I will fancy doing something with it in the future" does not constitute an experiment.

Edited by BigG, 13 November 2006 - 10:29 PM.

[Richard H]

As I understand it, you may not store it for any appreciable length of time, and that by the completion of the trial/experiment no explosive remains to be stored. Schedule 1 of the Control of Explosives Regulations lists exempt items for which a license to acquire or acquire and keep explosives is not required. Black powder is NOT on Schedule 1, therefore in order to keep the 100g of black powder you have manufactured legally under MSER, you will need an acquire & keep certificate issued by your local Police force. Whether or not the Police would grant you such a certificate is another matter.

Quoting MSER commentary:

The allowance of most general relevance is Regulation 10(2)(b)(ii)(bb) which permits the storage of upto 5 kgs net of any explosive listed on Schedule 1 of COER

This is one area where I believe the UKPS needs to campaign for some relief for hobbyists in the form of an exemption from the HSE. We can only have a hope and a prayer of doing this if we have a large and representative membership. The best thing you can do right now is join the society, come to our events, and lend your support to the cause.

[EnigmaticBiker]

This is one area where I believe the UKPS needs to campaign for some relief for hobbyists in the form of an exemption from the HSE. We can only have a hope and a prayer of doing this if we have a large and representative membership. The best thing you can do right now is join the society, come to our events, and lend your support to the cause.

Yes indeed, looking at COER schedule 1, there are so many exotic and nasty compounds on there that I am very surprised BP is not included.