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Which precipitation method is better to use?


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#1 BPBR

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 08:51 PM

I have found these two tutorials,which one give better results for lift powder?I will use it in a small bore cannon,3,81cm dia.Another doubt is:Isn't the vapour of the boiling water carry with it a small amount of kno3?I did a test with kitchen salt and when boiling it without stirring it carries a lot of salt leaving a lot of salt in the wall of the pan,I know stirring it will help to keep it in the water,but shouldn't it be added a little more kno3 when doing BP by precipitation method?
PS:Sorry for english mistakes :)
Thanks :D

Tutorial 1

1. Take your raw charcoal and crush it with a hammer between two sheets of paper. Wear old clothing and do this outside, since it is very messy. Sieve the charcoal through a coarse sieve (about 30 mesh).

2. Weigh the charcoal. To every 100 grams of charcoal, add 67 grams of sulfur, and fill 1/4th of your ball mill with this mixture. Put the media in and let the mill run for 8 hours.

3. While the mill is running, place 600 ml isopropylalcohol in a large container for every 100 grams of charcoal/sulfur mix you have, and place it in the fridge.

4. When you open your mill, you should find an incredibly fine black/greyish powder. Sieve this to get the media of the mill out, and weigh it. In a separate container, place 75 grams of potassium nitrate for every 25 grams of charcoal/sulfur powder you have. Put the potassium nitrate in an old pan, and add 40 ml tap water for every 100 grams of potassium nitrate.

5. Place the pan on the stove and bring it to a boil while continuesly stirring. When the solution starts boiling, start adding small amounts of water while stirring all the time untill all the potassium nitrate has dissolved.

6. Add an extra 10 ml tap water and the charcoal/sulfur mixture to the boiling potassium nitrate solution. Stir the charcoal/sulfur mixture in the solution. Make sure there are no dry clumbs left.

7. By now, your isopropylalcohol should have cooled to at least 0 deg C or colder. Take the isopropylalcohol outside, and pour the potasium nitrate solution/charcoal/sulfur into the cold isopropylalcohol. Make sure there are no sources of ignition nearby! Stir for a few seconds.

8. Cool the mixture again to 0 deg C at the fastest rate you can. The faster the better.

9. Filter the mixture through an old cloth, and squeeze to get all the liquid out. Discard the black liquid.

10. Spread the black mush out on a sheet of paper, and dry it in the sun. Don't try to dry it inside since it will produce a lot of flammable vapour from the ispropylalcohol. When it is still slightly wet to the touch, press it through a sieve to corn it. Then dry it further.

11. When dry, sieve the black powder through a few sieves to get several fractions for different purposes.


Tutorial 2


The long (and, quite frankly, more useful) version:

To make decent blackpowder, you need a ball-mill: A mill which uses heavy steel balls to crush chemicals. A little bit advanced for beginners, so let's go for a slightly simpler solution instead:

This method is based on the fact that KNO3 is highly soluble in boiling water, and the fact that the same chemical becomes a lot less soluble when you add alcohol to the mix - apart from this, you'll need an absolute minimum of equipment. So: Let's go!

Stuff you need:

* KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate: Salt Peter)
* C (Carbon: regular barbecue wood-coal is good enough, but if you can get pure carbon, from an arts supply store or similar, that'd be better)
* S (Sulphur - as clean as possible)
* Alcohol (cleaning alcohol or isopropanol is best)
* Electric hob (do not make blackpowder on open fire!)
* A piece of textile - as strong and as fine-masked as possible

To make about 200 grammes of black powder:

Measure 30 grammes of Carbon and 20 grammes of Sulphur. These need to be completely powdered - use a pestle and mortar or something like that. Mix it through piece of fine-masked textile (a nylon stocking, for example) and the pieces that don't go through will need to be crushed further. You want no lumps in your mixture.

Now, measure 150 grammes of Potassium Nitrate in 70 ml of distilled water (regular tap water can be used, but distilled is better). When it starts to boil, add the C and S.

Mix until everything is a thick, dark sauce. Congratulations, you now have blackpowder - so be careful.

Take the mixture off the hob, and leave it to cool a minute or so. It may be useful to take your mixture outdoor, as it is now extremely flammable, although it won't explode if it does catch fire, but chances are you can kiss your eyebrows farewell - if you're lucky.

Carefully start heating your mixture again, and add 60 ml alcohol, and stir vigorously. The alcohol will boil, and the fumes coming off your mixture will be highly flammable. This is a strictly non-smoking operation, in other words.

When most of your alcohol is boiled away, add another 20-30 ml, and repeat the above procedure.

Leave it to cool. Move all your mixture onto a strong piece of fabric. Collect all the corners, turning the fabric into a ball - Wring this, so most of the liquid in your mixture falls out.

Take your dry-ish ball of blackpowder, and granulate it into tiny chunks. Use a regular kitchen grater or something. Spread this on a piece of paper, and leave it to dry completely. Don't use heat to dry this, for obvious reasons. Patience is the only way.

When it is completely dry, you have approximately 200 grammes of premium quality black powder. Use it with care.

Edited by BPBR, 21 June 2006 - 08:53 PM.

Try to ignore my english mistakes :P

#2 Mumbles

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 09:35 PM

The first would be better in my opinion. No KNO3 is lost with the boiling water by the way, at least nothing noticeable. The slow cooling and high heat in the second method would not integrate the KNO3 as well in my opinion. I also don't like the idea of heating the alcohol. If using a proper electric hotplate there is nothing to worry about(besides fumes), but you know some moron won't be thinking and will do it indoors with a gas range.

#3 BPBR

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 11:28 PM

Thanks for answering,do you think it is possible to use instead of pure isopropyl alcohol,use 92,8% ethyl alcohol?The rest of it is water and probably some substances to make it not usable for alcohol bevarages,it's sold in markets in Brazil.

Edited by BPBR, 21 June 2006 - 11:29 PM.

Try to ignore my english mistakes :P

#4 Rip Rap

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 08:03 AM

Thanks for answering,do you think it is possible to use instead of pure isopropyl alcohol,use 92,8% ethyl alcohol?The rest of it is water and probably some substances to make it not usable for alcohol bevarages,it's sold in markets in Brazil.


Yes you can use ethyl alcohol instead. Over here alot of people use methylated spirit - the main constituent is ethyl alcohol.

Use method 1. If you ball mill a good charcoal (eg willow) with the sulphur & put the methylated spirit / isopropyl alcohol in the freezer (not just the fridge - you want it as cold as possible to speed up the precipitation process) you can make BP as good or better than commercial :) Please take note of Mumbles' safety tips.
"Choose a job that you love & you will never do a days work in your life!"

#5 BPBR

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 09:02 PM

Yes you can use ethyl alcohol instead. Over here alot of people use methylated spirit - the main constituent is ethyl alcohol.

Use method 1. If you ball mill a good charcoal (eg willow) with the sulphur & put the methylated spirit / isopropyl alcohol in the freezer (not just the fridge - you want it as cold as possible to speed up the precipitation process) you can make BP as good or better than commercial :) Please take note of Mumbles' safety tips.

A friend of mine that works for coca-cola factory took me some pure charcoal that is used to take some taste off the cola,it's so thin that I believe it's activated charcoal,does it also make good black powder?
Thanks :)

Edited by BPBR, 22 June 2006 - 09:04 PM.

Try to ignore my english mistakes :P

#6 Phoenix

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 09:43 PM

No - what the second method was saying about pure carbon is wrong. Maybe it meant pure charcoal (charcoal briquettes often have clay etc. in them too). Pure carbon, such as activated charcoal, makes very poor BP. Your Coca Cola brand carbon will probably not make very poor BP. The best type of carbon is charcoal from a soft wood like willow, pawlonia, pine or poplar (traditionally, pine is not reckoned to be good, but in my experience and that of many other people it works pretty well, and is always easy to get).

The two methods above are really very similar, the basic idea is to measure a 75:15:10 (or 15:3:2) ratio of saltpetre, charcoal and sulphur, grind the charcoal and sulphur as finely as possible, dissolve the saltpetre in hot water, soak it into the charcoal and sulphur mixture and then precipitate the saltpetre out into the smallest crystals possible (this is what the alcohol does).

A ball mill is the best way to get the charcoal and sulphur really fine. They're not difficult to build, and plenty of sites have instructions for doing this. However, if you have a ball mill for doing this you may as well mill your BP with it, as this will produce a better product than the precipitation method and is easier and cleaner. Milling BP is a large topic in itself, and you should research this before attempting it.

The fastest BP will result from wetting and drying the mixture first and then milling it. In this case, the hot water can just be allowed to evaporate and alcohol need not be used, as the large crystals of potassium nitrate that form will be milled down anyway. Basically either of the above processes up to the point where alcohol is added. After this, you allow it to cool, then spread it out on a tray or board (or a sheet of glass - what I use) to dry. By the time the mixture has cooled, most of the saltpetre will have precipitated out anyway, so the mixture will be quite firm rather than runny. This also avoids losing saltpetre. Even though saltpetre is not very soluble in cold alcohol solution, quite a lot gets wasted when the mixture is squeezed in the cloth.

By the way, a tiny amount of saltpetre does leave the boiling mixture, not in water vapour but in the tiny droplets of mist that can leave the surface of the boiling mixture. However, a lot of saltpetre is lost if the wet BP mix is squeezed in a cloth.

Edit: SpAG

Edited by Phoenix, 22 June 2006 - 09:45 PM.


#7 Mumbles

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 10:01 PM

The best type of carbon is charcoal from a soft wood like willow, pawlonia, pine or poplar (traditionally, pine is not reckoned to be good, but in my experience and that of many other people it works pretty well, and is always easy to get).


Ummmm, willow, paulonia, and and poplar are all hardwoods. From my experience, hardwood-softwood doesn't matter really. Certain types of pine are actually pretty fast in BP. Yellow or white pine I think it is has a good burn speed.

#8 BPBR

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 08:40 AM

No - what the second method was saying about pure carbon is wrong. Maybe it meant pure charcoal (charcoal briquettes often have clay etc. in them too). Pure carbon, such as activated charcoal, makes very poor BP. Your Coca Cola brand carbon will probably not make very poor BP. The best type of carbon is charcoal from a soft wood like willow, pawlonia, pine or poplar (traditionally, pine is not reckoned to be good, but in my experience and that of many other people it works pretty well, and is always easy to get).

The two methods above are really very similar, the basic idea is to measure a 75:15:10 (or 15:3:2) ratio of saltpetre, charcoal and sulphur, grind the charcoal and sulphur as finely as possible, dissolve the saltpetre in hot water, soak it into the charcoal and sulphur mixture and then precipitate the saltpetre out into the smallest crystals possible (this is what the alcohol does).

A ball mill is the best way to get the charcoal and sulphur really fine. They're not difficult to build, and plenty of sites have instructions for doing this. However, if you have a ball mill for doing this you may as well mill your BP with it, as this will produce a better product than the precipitation method and is easier and cleaner. Milling BP is a large topic in itself, and you should research this before attempting it.

The fastest BP will result from wetting and drying the mixture first and then milling it. In this case, the hot water can just be allowed to evaporate and alcohol need not be used, as the large crystals of potassium nitrate that form will be milled down anyway. Basically either of the above processes up to the point where alcohol is added. After this, you allow it to cool, then spread it out on a tray or board (or a sheet of glass - what I use) to dry. By the time the mixture has cooled, most of the saltpetre will have precipitated out anyway, so the mixture will be quite firm rather than runny. This also avoids losing saltpetre. Even though saltpetre is not very soluble in cold alcohol solution, quite a lot gets wasted when the mixture is squeezed in the cloth.

By the way, a tiny amount of saltpetre does leave the boiling mixture, not in water vapour but in the tiny droplets of mist that can leave the surface of the boiling mixture. However, a lot of saltpetre is lost if the wet BP mix is squeezed in a cloth.

Edit: SpAG

http://www.ukrocketr...ivated charcoal
In this topic BurlHorse says it make acceptable BP,have you already tested also to see if it makes such a poor charcoal? :(
Thanks for the other information,I will also put in a sheet of glass to avoid losing kno3 :)
EDIT:Also is it possible to I make sure it's activated charcoal or/and if it is made from hardwoods?The person that took for me don't have this type of information of it.

Edited by BPBR, 23 June 2006 - 03:47 PM.

Try to ignore my english mistakes :P

#9 pyrotrev

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 06:39 PM

Thanks for the other information,I will also put in a sheet of glass to avoid losing kno3 :)
EDIT:Also is it possible to I make sure it's activated charcoal or/and if it is made from hardwoods?The person that took for me don't have this type of information of it.

Ola amigo! - hey, it's nice to find someone from Brasil on the forum, I really like your country, I was in Rio visiting a friend just a few weeks ago. I saw a football match, where a lot of the crowd seemed to have brought flares along to let off when their team won - crazy!
Regarding activated charcoal, it varies a lot, since it is made from many different kinds of wood (and even things like bone or coconut shells sometimes), on the whole it's not so good for making BP, though you can always try a small amount to see how well it works. Charcoal is easy to make with a simple kind of "oven" - a metal can in a slow fire will do - see elsewhere in this forum. I would guess the wood from some of the fast growing palm trees you have would make pretty good BP. Some of your heavy hardwoods might not be so good, since they have quite a high mineral content.

Edited by pyrotrev, 23 June 2006 - 06:41 PM.

Trying to do something very beautiful but very dangerous very safely....

#10 BPBR

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 07:59 PM

Ola amigo! - hey, it's nice to find someone from Brasil on the forum, I really like your country, I was in Rio visiting a friend just a few weeks ago. I saw a football match, where a lot of the crowd seemed to have brought flares along to let off when their team won - crazy!
Regarding activated charcoal, it varies a lot, since it is made from many different kinds of wood (and even things like bone or coconut shells sometimes), on the whole it's not so good for making BP, though you can always try a small amount to see how well it works. Charcoal is easy to make with a simple kind of "oven" - a metal can in a slow fire will do - see elsewhere in this forum. I would guess the wood from some of the fast growing palm trees you have would make pretty good BP. Some of your heavy hardwoods might not be so good, since they have quite a high mineral content.

Ol? :) It's not a easy task to find pure charcoal here for selling.In spite of we having some good options of tree to make charcoal powder I think if I find some pure charcoal here would be in a store that sells charcoal for drawing and it would be imported :P A user have already PM me offering alder,for what I have searched in the forum it seens a pretty good option to willow :)

Does someone have tested how much good lift powder alder charcoal makes?

Edited by BPBR, 23 June 2006 - 10:41 PM.

Try to ignore my english mistakes :P

#11 Phoenix

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Posted 25 June 2006 - 09:33 PM

Ummmm, willow, paulonia, and and poplar are all hardwoods. From my experience, hardwood-softwood doesn't matter really. Certain types of pine are actually pretty fast in BP. Yellow or white pine I think it is has a good burn speed.


Quite true, but I said soft wood, not softwood - there is a difference! Probably should have been clearer, lol! But yes, as a rule, any cellulose material which produces a low density "fluffy" charcoal is good.

BPBR - I'd have to admit at this point that I haven't actually ever used activated charcoal myself, but by general consensus it is pretty poor, and if you're buying it unnecessarily expensive, apart from anything else.

I don’t know how you could test your friend’s charcoal to see what it is. If it’s fairly light and soft that’s a good sign. However, presumably what matters from your point of view is whether it makes good BP. To test this, just make a small batch of BP from it and see what happens!

Edited by Phoenix, 10 July 2006 - 02:52 PM.


#12 BPBR

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 10:35 PM

Thanks people,I did the BP yesterday and today it was dry,it's burning f**king fast(and it is not a fine powder,just granulated).I did a test to see how fast it was burning around 3g using a match to light it up and it was so fast that I didn't have time to take my finger off,just a small burn though :P :D
I used balsa charcoal that I found here for selling :)

Edited by BPBR, 05 July 2006 - 10:39 PM.

Try to ignore my english mistakes :P

#13 fishy1

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Posted 08 July 2006 - 11:07 PM

Thanks people,I did the BP yesterday and today it was dry,it's burning f**king fast(and it is not a fine powder,just granulated).I did a test to see how fast it was burning around 3g using a match to light it up and it was so fast that I didn't have time to take my finger off,just a small burn though :P :D
I used balsa charcoal that I found here for selling :)



Just btw, how bulky it the granulated powder?

#14 BPBR

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 02:50 AM

Just btw, how bulky it the granulated powder?

Something between FFG and FFFG
Posted Image
Try to ignore my english mistakes :P

#15 fishy1

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 02:13 PM

Something between FFG and FFFG
Posted Image


I really meant how dense is it?




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