82 replies to this topic

[crystal palace fireworks]

There is good TV programming to be made from a heritage reconstruction BUT is there any funding? Lots of lottery funded places are closing due to the lottery fund with holding money in favour of olympic type bids.

Do you, does anyone, have the life and cash to spend on a huge DIY project with little prospect for a return on anything, and a strong likelyhood that someone will complain that it "isn't safe"

There may be lots of decontamination to do from previous users. There certainly was when the royal gunopwder mills at waltham abbey was returned to housing

Funding:- I think there probably is if locals (living in the borough) were to organise and join a campaign alongside the UKPS to do there bit to help out occasionally, also it is part of an area linked with the Thames Gateway that involves the olympics in one way or another.........are there any members on this forum who live in the Bexley borough interested in starting campaign?

Have I got the life or cash to spend on a huge DIY project?,.......probably not as much as I would like! - but is the factory site a huge DIY project in the first place?.

Decontamination:- Interesting!,..........what are we talking about here - a few recontructed huts on marsh land, a bulldozer to skim the surface in certain areas, perhaps one or two temporary buildings/a few pathways/a viewing area etc - the simple answer is no one knows what contamination is there anyway until someone investigates.

In Rainham essex, the locals managed to secure a large area for wild/local nature to exist which is now protected...........I don`t see why other campaigns can`t work together to regenerate that Bexley area!

Most of the olympic site in stratford in contaminated, as is the housing estate built in the 1980`s on the former Becton Gas Works site..........yet they still went ahead and built housing...............you will always get some people complaining that a site is unsafe........thats life im afraid!

[pyrotechnist]

I agree maybe a few huts can be restored or re-built for a museum of some sort showing how fireworks where once made in the UK. The huts are only made from wood and corrugated iron sheets which aren't the most expensive materials around. The contamination may be a problem but like you said a lot of sites have been contaminated and built over. I just think it is a shame to lose probably one of our oldest firework manufacturing sites that so many famous companies have owned.

[spectrum]

I think a sensible, commercial view is necessary. I am in no doubt as to the passion and depth of interest felt by members of the society and the general readership of this website. To keep the old place at Dartford alive in some way would cost a small fortune and I very much doubt that such an enterprise could raise the sort of revenue necessary to keep itself going. This view may cause consternation amongst some of you (I am not a traitor by the way!) just a realist.

A compromise would be to try and document the history, record images of the site before they completely perish and keep an open view.

I was kept reasonably informed about the place when I worked for the Astra group - the company owned around 7 explosive / pyrotechnic factories around the world, 4 in the U.K., 2 in the States and 1 in Canada. Dartford was very much the poor cousin of the group. I seem to recall whenever someone returned to our Sandwich factory from Unwins groans and grumbles about the state of the place and complaints about one thing or another. The electrical supply was grim to say the least - it simply had the feel of a place that had been built in the 1930's and never updated which is, I suspect, the reason it appeals to so many of us now.

There was some upgrading in the late 1980's when Astra bought another company in that area and located them in a large drawing room / office. The company was called O.F.S. Ltd from memory. They based them on the far left hand side of the site against the perimeter fence just as you enter the first gate, just short of the works canteen. These were nice offices I recall.

I did work for another pyrotechnic company in the early 1990's at the time when Astra were clearing and disposing of the site, I was asked to look into this company buying the site and relocating their operations there but the scale of the task simply made the job unviable.

My hopes would be that, rather than convert the place to a museum, some enterprising individual might look to re-establish a factory on the site on the basis of its merits with regard to location and outsiide safety distances. I am in no doubt that U.K. manufacture will become commercially attractive again in the near future now that the Chinese have begun adjusting their prices and in the absence of another cheap labour source appearing with the skills needed to maintain quality expectations.

I am, by the way, still in touch with former directors of the Astra group and have access to one of the former Directors of Unwins. I could telephone one of my former bosses and ask whether or not he would be prepared to shed some light on the place if that would be of interest or benefit.

[Arthur Brown]

It's and interesting project. It may become self supporting, but the society would not have time or money to support the project especially with the Lincs Factory project absorbing time and money.

Crystal Palace Fireworks are you able to fund and manage a project there? An industrial archaeology start with some reports deposited in the local library then a Visitor centre then perhaps a small willow plantation and a BP mill - but then you need Licences and planning permissions. AND BIG MONEY.

The decontamination at Walthamstow involved them finding large - like multi ton! - waste sites of badly nitrated organics probably spoiled batches ot RDX HMX. These were found when the builders were digging trenches for services and foundations and no-one is certain that there are no more underground nasties
Also there were abnormal amounts of lead and mercury in the ground from manufacture of primaries.

A find of Paris Green in the ground wouldn't be impossible but recovering it from the soil would be hugely expensive. Likewise some lead salts and perhaps some calomel Whatever was used in fireworks in that time there will be something left there.

The cat 4 course thread is a measure of www.enthusiasm turning into real happenings! Out of 1500 interested people on here six are interested enough to pay money.

If someone (CPF? ) Can gain the rights to the site then a research project to a full archaeological report would be a start

[crystal palace fireworks]

I think a sensible, commercial view is necessary. I am in no doubt as to the passion and depth of interest felt by members of the society and the general readership of this website. To keep the old place at Dartford alive in some way would cost a small fortune and I very much doubt that such an enterprise could raise the sort of revenue necessary to keep itself going. This view may cause consternation amongst some of you (I am not a traitor by the way!) just a realist.

A compromise would be to try and document the history, record images of the site before they completely perish and keep an open view.

I was kept reasonably informed about the place when I worked for the Astra group - the company owned around 7 explosive / pyrotechnic factories around the world, 4 in the U.K., 2 in the States and 1 in Canada. Dartford was very much the poor cousin of the group. I seem to recall whenever someone returned to our Sandwich factory from Unwins groans and grumbles about the state of the place and complaints about one thing or another. The electrical supply was grim to say the least - it simply had the feel of a place that had been built in the 1930's and never updated which is, I suspect, the reason it appeals to so many of us now.

There was some upgrading in the late 1980's when Astra bought another company in that area and located them in a large drawing room / office. The company was called O.F.S. Ltd from memory. They based them on the far left hand side of the site against the perimeter fence just as you enter the first gate, just short of the works canteen. These were nice offices I recall.

I did work for another pyrotechnic company in the early 1990's at the time when Astra were clearing and disposing of the site, I was asked to look into this company buying the site and relocating their operations there but the scale of the task simply made the job unviable.

My hopes would be that, rather than convert the place to a museum, some enterprising individual might look to re-establish a factory on the site on the basis of its merits with regard to location and outsiide safety distances. I am in no doubt that U.K. manufacture will become commercially attractive again in the near future now that the Chinese have begun adjusting their prices and in the absence of another cheap labour source appearing with the skills needed to maintain quality expectations.

I am, by the way, still in touch with former directors of the Astra group and have access to one of the former Directors of Unwins. I could telephone one of my former bosses and ask whether or not he would be prepared to shed some light on the place if that would be of interest or benefit.

Spectrum, I agree with a lot of your thoughts on Dartford (and no your not a traitor...far far from it, Im a great believer in trying to re-establish british manufacturing and proper skills training in industries that we have lost over the last few decades through political mis-management and self interest), If you could get some more info on the site from your contacts with former Astra directors , that would be great!,.........perhaps they have some old photo`s of the place stashed away somwhere? I like your idea on documenting its history!, also I wonder if they have any old equipment from the factory that they would like to donate to a good cause?

Arthur, your right about efforts regarding time and effort for this project, and that we perhaps should concentrate on the Lincs factory at this time.......and I agree! (Im just curious to see there is anything we could do to help create something at Dartford before its too late given the nearby massive building project thats going on!)

In terms of funding this Dartford thing myself?..............I don`t think so, project manage it? I don`t know,...............Im trying to look at various options open to us and others who could get involved with the help and expertise on this forum.

According to a email I recieved two days ago from `The Bridge` partnership with Dartford council, the University of Greenwich still owns the land.

Now wouldn`t it be interesting if we could get them (UOG) involved in some way!........I believe they recieve research funding to the tune of £8.000.000,........ I would like to see there archealogy, science, and history departments participate in and with UKPS members, by perhaps creating some new courses on firework making with a qualification at the end of it!, and perhaps do some field studies on site (what arthur said).

I wonder if a small on-site university laboratory/testing facility for firework making for students and the UKPS might be the way to go rather than a factory?

Also, why can`t some re-furbished old huts be used for public or student demonstations using old wooden equipment/techniques and dummy powders....this would make dealing with the HSE a lot easier! (the equipment could be locked away at the end of the day in container).

Cat 4 course, Arthur I empathize that only 6 are willing to pay (I wonder how many of the 1500 are based in the UK?), but I wouldn`t be too disheartned...........the current credit crunch/travelling costs and perhaps the extra costs in buying safety gear etc might have been a factor in there reluctance to send a cheque for the course at this moment in time,........keep up the good work....its very much appreciated by myself and others on this forum regarding the effort you have put in trying to arrange training etc.

[spectrum]

Spectrum, I agree with a lot of your thoughts on Dartford (and no your not a traitor...far far from it, Im a great believer in trying to re-establish british manufacturing and proper skills training in industries that we have lost over the last few decades through political mis-management and self interest), If you could get some more info on the site from your contacts with former Astra directors , that would be great!,.........perhaps they have some old photo`s of the place stashed away somwhere? I like your idea on documenting its history!, also I wonder if they have any old equipment from the factory that they would like to donate to a good cause?

Arthur, your right about efforts regarding time and effort for this project, and that we perhaps should concentrate on the Lincs factory at this time.......and I agree! (Im just curious to see there is anything we could do to help create something at Dartford before its too late given the nearby massive building project thats going on!)

In terms of funding this Dartford thing myself?..............I don`t think so, project manage it? I don`t know,...............Im trying to look at various options open to us and others who could get involved with the help and expertise on this forum.

According to a email I recieved two days ago from `The Bridge` partnership with Dartford council, the University of Greenwich still owns the land.

Now wouldn`t it be interesting if we could get them (UOG) involved in some way!........I believe they recieve research funding to the tune of £8.000.000,........ I would like to see there archealogy, science, and history departments participate in and with UKPS members, by perhaps creating some new courses on firework making with a qualification at the end of it!, and perhaps do some field studies on site (what arthur said).

I wonder if a small on-site university laboratory/testing facility for firework making for students and the UKPS might be the way to go rather than a factory?

Also, why can`t some re-furbished old huts be used for public or student demonstations using old wooden equipment/techniques and dummy powders....this would make dealing with the HSE a lot easier! (the equipment could be locked away at the end of the day in container).

Cat 4 course, Arthur I empathize that only 6 are willing to pay (I wonder how many of the 1500 are based in the UK?), but I wouldn`t be too disheartned...........the current credit crunch/travelling costs and perhaps the extra costs in buying safety gear etc might have been a factor in there reluctance to send a cheque for the course at this moment in time,........keep up the good work....its very much appreciated by myself and others on this forum regarding the effort you have put in trying to arrange training etc.

I very much doubt that there would be any old photographs of the site. Whilst I can reflect on the site now in a warm way, at the time when I was working within the Astra group and indeed on that site, it wasn't viewed that way - I am amazed see myself commenting in this way now as I have always been so frustrated at others who have made similar comments about such things in the past, cars they once owned, old buildings and people now gone etc. At the time it was just a factory to us, and a run down one at that. A curiosity but not one whose future was ever considered. In fact it never occurred to anyone that there would be a group of people interested in pyrotechnics such as you lot!

The tooling etc was disposed of but not in a way that I would be comfortable telling you lot about! I did pull a small set of scales out of the place and some chemicals - one pot in the lab had gotten there from Sandwich, I have it now in my lab at the Spectrum factory out of sentimental value, the initials on the pot dated 1983 are mine, the contents are probably no good but my wife said keep it. Everything was pulled out of the sheds and scrapped or dumped in the buildings just inside the gates, on either side. I remember a labelling machine, still loaded with self adhesive firework labels on the right hand side, we were interested in this for labelling the smokes we made for Enola Gaye up here, I went back one day and it had gone, I think someone had torched the building.

The laboratory down there - it is still there - had been fitted out professionally years ago, beautiful job too. a small square building on the right hand side 30 yards down inside the gate. The fittings were taken by John Kent from Haley and Weller, in Draycott. They were part of the group and went round buying stuff up. I was told that Colonel Kent immediately lay claim to it as soon as he saw it, I'm glad it went somewhere where it would be preserved, you could tell whoever bought it spent money on it. Whilst I was there though it was a real mess. Brian Issott ran that side of the business and he was, I am afraid, a messy sod. Pots of powder everywhere, open in some cases a real state - he went on to become an Explosives Inspector before he died.

As for research, the University of Greenwich has sponsored some work into soil contamination down there I believe already, either for educational purposes or to establish the state of the ground for future development.

As for educational work, I know the University of Leeds used to conduct research work on high explosives and had their own license. Quite how attractive a change in syllabus would be to Greenwich god only knows, I think you would have your work cut out.

The only hope for the place would be for them to realise that it has limited commercial value, huge liabilities and for them to put it up for sale to someone who has the means and inclination to return the use to manufacture. Check your lottery tickets.....

[pyrotechnist]

Hi spectrum is this the lab you was stating.



And here is a small storage bunker near the front of the site packed full of things and I think an old wooden tool if its still there.





By anychance spectrum do you know what this machine does:



And what exactly did this interesting building do which is on the far right of the site near the entrance.



Sorry for all questions but very curios . Got more pics if anyone wants to see.

[crystal palace fireworks]

ok, here`s the latest questions & answer email I got from Dartford Council!

1, Has the land where the old `Astra Fireworks` factory been demolished? 2, Does the University of Greenwich (owners of the land) still have planning permission to manufacture/store/test fireworks? 3, Are there any plans or applications for this site to be built-on? 4, Has `The Bridge` development made any offers for this land? 1. The site has not been cleared. There is still, I believe, a valid license for the site in respect of the manufacture and storage of fireworks. Apparently, to have the license revoked it requires the decontamination of the land and buildings and this is an expensive undertaking. Hence the site has been left;2. The permitted planning use of the site remains. 3. No applications have been submitted and I have not been involved in any discussions relating to this site since The University of Greenwich proposed a new campus in this area.4. Not that I am aware. In the circumstances I hope this is of assistance. Regards Adrian LeggAsst. Development Control Manager

[pyrotechnist]

That doesn't sound to bad then at least nothing, hopefully, will be built upon it. We just need more pics of the site and even better vids of it and any materials that can be salvaged.

[Arthur Brown]

It would seem from CPF's exchange with the council that the fact the land is regarded as contaminated has kept interest from commercial users low! Have we a good idea of the likely contamination of the plot?

The finding of HUGE partly nitrated partly scorched deposits at Walthamstow did frighten the developers Clearly there had been hundreds of tons of discarded product dumped in holes in the ground.

CPF Can you persuade that UoG to offer a course in chemistry of energetic materials AND host us on their land!

[crystal palace fireworks]

It would seem from CPF's exchange with the council that the fact the land is regarded as contaminated has kept interest from commercial users low! Have we a good idea of the likely contamination of the plot?

The finding of HUGE partly nitrated partly scorched deposits at Walthamstow did frighten the developers Clearly there had been hundreds of tons of discarded product dumped in holes in the ground.

CPF Can you persuade that UoG to offer a course in chemistry of energetic materials AND host us on their land!

Arthur, in this modern age - its looks like your right in respect of the fussyness/problems of getting the site de-contaminated in accordence with HSE likings!

Course in chemistry etc with the UoG? ......you beat me to it, and even more if I can pursuade them!.........how about a degree course to include different modules in firework construction - which includes testing, BS standards, new designs of fireworks, firing and setting up displays, music choreography of fireworks/designing a show, MSER regs, smoke and stage fireworks etc.

I wonder what what it would cost to de-contaminate the site for real?.........do you think there is any reason why the bods at the uni can not carry-out the surveying of the site? or has this work got to be carried by a licensed waste carrier?

Edited by crystal palace fireworks, 21 July 2008 - 07:19 AM.

[concept]

I don't want this topic to fade back into the archives, as it has generated so much interest and serious discussion of an active project down at Dartford. As spectrum has pointed out firework manufacture is bound to return to Britain sooner or later, and with the economy going the way it is people won't want to spend so much money on big Chinese cakes or over priced selection boxes. Within the next few years a gap in the market will open up, but why wait until then the time to act is now, find out if the site is seriously contaminated, how much would it cost to rent/buy the land ect. Also wouldn't discount outside funding either, if UKPS can't raise all the money why not try and get sponsorship or something along those lines.

Thanks Doug

Edited by concept, 23 July 2008 - 11:33 AM.

[Shake]

This sounds like a very interesting project!

Although I am a little far away(across the pond) to offer any physical kind of help, is there anything I can do to assist?

[pyrotechnist]

First thing is first how much would it all come to though I really really want to help out in re-storing the old bugger.

Positives:

* The sheds are nicely spaced.
* seem cheap in construction.
* Factory has adequate amount of space for more buildings or to even sell parts of land off for more money.
* A large amount of buildings that probably can be restored without demolishing.
* Being useless and contaminated land may make it cheaper to obtain.
* Nice sized construction workshops.
* A testing grounds that can be used for both fireworks and model rocketry.
* Nice amount of storage magazines and room for more.
* May still have a license from the council and trading standards for manufacturing fireworks. Just need to renew a license maybe from HSE?
* Could base the UKPS headquarters there?

Negatives:

* A lot of work to be done.
* Lots of foliage to cut down and clear.
* Contamination.
* Near by developments.
* A lot of buildings are in need of repair or re-constructing.
* Some parts of the site have been burnt down or vandalized.
* Need a renewal HSE manufacturing license or a new one once the site is restored if it is to be used for manufacturing.
* Far away from some members of this society.
* Needs new pluming and electrics fitting.
* May cost a lot of money and use a lot of time and investment.

I really think it is a shame to wast such a great factory that still has a lot of potential and maybe within the future could be sold off to another firework manufacturer or importer re-gaining any lost money. Does anyone else have any good or bad points they want to point out about the site?

Just my two cents.

[crystal palace fireworks]

Ok guys,

I haven`t forgotten this project, I ve been a bit busy with other stuff, plus Im just contemplating the next step we should take!

Going by spectrums thoughts, should we ask the UoG if they want to sell the site?...........if they do want to sell....... can we as an organisation afford to buy it yet? or should we approach them with an idea to work with them to build something long term, say as part of the UK`s first national firework building school with national qualifications? ........I would also love to see this site become a part museum with a proper safety screen viewing area for the public to watch the testing as well.

I believe there maybe a few options open to us to get funding for this project............(we might get away with not paying much when it comes to having the land de-contaminated)..........especially if its in the interests of education, science, community projects, or perhaps saving our heritage, plus the land is in the vicinity of the up and coming developement of the Thames Gateway area!

Another question:- Is there a way to get around the problems of de-contamination of the site?...........does all the site have to be de-contaminated to re-establish firework manufacture for education purposes and the like?

I maybe wrong, but wouldn`t siting some porta-cabins be a way to establish some laboratory`s to build fireworks?..............What im saying is.......... wouldn`t this get around having to build a permanent structure (laboratory) whereby land would have to be dug (de-contaminated) for foundations to be laid, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

I don`t mind spending half a day once a week helping out on site!, its only £1.50 each way to cross the dartford tunnel for me, plus its only about a 30 mile round trip to get to the site!

What shall we do guys?