15 replies to this topic

[TCblastmaster]

It may seem a bit of an odd question but it is obvious that a number of my fellow pyros test fire shells at times other than around Guy Fawke's night and New Year.
I thought the authorities were clamping down on the firing of fireworks at other times.

For precisely this reason I have tended to endure the 'white knuckle ride' of test firing my prototypes as an integral element of my displays - crossing my fingers and hoping they perform as planned!

How do you chaps get around this one? Do you live in very remote areas or know a land owner in such a location? Obviously I don't want to cause a nuisance to nearby residents or attract too much attention from those who may not appreciate my well-intentioned activities.

Whilst I live in a rural area, I would have to say that my 3" and 4" mortars are rediculously loud; Causing dissent among the ranks of ducks in a pond over half a mile away! I am aiming to develop multibreak cylindrical shells, so I am a little concerned as to how I can achieve this without receiving one of those merits of community achievement.....commonly referred to as an 'ASBO' (I am only joking!!!)

Any advice would be appreciated.

TC

Edited by TCblastmaster, 15 February 2007 - 12:39 AM.

[sizzle]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the "authorities clamping down" as it's legal to fire fireworks 365 days a year between 7AM and 11PM (I think) (special occasions e.g. Nov 5th have later times) so the police can't really do anything unless they know it's home-made...

[Andrew]

There are no specific rules meaning you cannot shoot fireworks at any time of year. The timing thing (i.e. not after 11pm) is a noise pollution thing, however excessive noise at any time of day is prohibited (be it a constant annoyance or a singular f*ck off loud event).

I know of a shot blasting firm that had to close because the noise it produced was affecting the locals. The Environment Agency would be your best port of call to ascertain the level of noise that is permitted; unless someone knows off the top of their head. Sound Level meters are easily obtainable for eBay and alike for a couple of quid; so it would not be too difficult to get some figures.

As for the legalities of it all, the thread on MSER bludgeoned it to death. But the nuts and guts of it boil down to something like, any device you make cannot have a NEC above 100g to class as "experimental". A major sticking point is, that it is an offence to actually "test" that device as part of a display. So "testing" a device must remain totally within the "experimental" domain, i.e. make it shoot it! (without all your mates watching).

As long as it remains "experimental" in the eyes of MSER, and the noise produced it not like a pair of Concords taking off at the same time, and of course the experiment takes place at a 'reasonable hour' (which would naturally be less if young children lived near by... etc.), there should be no problem. Oh, and the experiment was safe!, i.e. enough space, like a big field.

Edited by Andrew, 15 February 2007 - 10:31 AM.

[TCblastmaster]

Thanks for that. I was just seeking reasurance as I have always endeavoured to practice this hobby in a safe, responsible and considerate manner.

My property backs on to farmland and I always inform the land owner that I am shooting fireworks - he has livestock. He has also allowed me to use his field if there are no crops on it and this has provided a safe distance and a fallout zone.

My displays only involve two or three people at the most, who are also involved with the shooting. Only I deal with the shells in case of a malfunction.

I just thought I'd clarify that I do not and would never consider test firing devices on an unsuspecting audience. If I do have family and friends round, the only experimentation is with different colour combinations and effects in tried and tested shell designs.

TC

[maxman]

I find it a real pain and very frustrating that it's difficult for me to shoot pyro without going for a long drive to a suitable location. I don't shoot much stuff, maybe one or two test shells that are over pretty quickly but if feels like you've gotta sneak about and always on the look out for anyone about. There always seems to be someone else wherever you are. I wouldn't like my car reg clocked. Or a police car to be on patrol round some dark lane and get collared it really wouldn't be worth it!

How do you guys go on that shoot big stuff like sasman and karlfoxman? frozentech seems to have the ideal situation living in the middle of nowhere, ahh bliss

Do you take your mortars out with you? and then carry them back? I was thinking of burying one at a suitable location and fitting some kind of lid to stop rainwater getting in and then putting a turf of grass on the top so there is nothing to carry from the site. I mean you must need nerves of steel to be firing large shells and then come away from the site carrying a 6 or 8" mortar still smoking!

Any experiences or stories along these lines would be interesting

or is it just me being a nervous wreck?

[MMMMMM Pyro]

Hi,
Maxman I have much the same situation, though, with my neighbors I have to make sure thry're out before I even light a fountain!
However, I was wondering, I have a friend that owns his own field, its relatively large and more than suitable {size wise, for what I do} for pyro. He also has an interest in pyro, if we were to assemble {for example a 3 inch shell} at his field and let it off there, would that be legal?
Any replys are much appreciated.

Regards,

Mike

[sizzle]

Hi,
Maxman I have much the same situation, though, with my neighbors I have to make sure thry're out before I even light a fountain!
However, I was wondering, I have a friend that owns his own field, its relatively large and more than suitable {size wise, for what I do} for pyro. He also has an interest in pyro, if we were to assemble {for example a 3 inch shell} at his field and let it off there, would that be legal?
Any replys are much appreciated.

Regards,

Mike

Assembling a shell ANYWHERE apart from a lisenced facility is illegal. So no, it would not be legal.

[MMMMMM Pyro]

Assembling a shell ANYWHERE apart from a lisenced facility is illegal. So no, it would not be legal.

Thanks for that, much appreciated.

Regards,

Mike

[BrightStar]

Assembling a shell ANYWHERE apart from a lisenced facility is illegal. So no, it would not be legal.

Hi Sizzle, Wouldn't a 3" ball shell (or smaller) come under the experimental testing provisions of the UK MSER, or is there other specific legislation referring to shells? Mine use approx. 8g lift, 70g stars, 20g burst so the NEQ is just less than the 100g experimental limit.

TC, I test the shells on remote farmland with the owner's full approval, but not without some nervousness... As you know, most of the things that can go wrong with a shell are hazardous and require time and space to tidy up. It would be difficult to do so safely in an inappropriate location.

re the bigger shells, as many of the founder UKPS members are fireworks professionals, they could quite routinely be testing the huge stuff without drawing unwanted attention.

Edited by BrightStar, 18 February 2007 - 11:21 PM.

[TCblastmaster]

Sorry about the above, everything froze before I could add a reply - rather strange.

Thanks Maxman, just the sort of reply I was looking for. You are quite right, it is a pain testing shells as they are not the sort of thing to go unnoticed. You are not the only nervous wreck, I live opposite an officer of the law! I don't know whether he likes fireworks or not but I guess I will find out sooner or later.

I usually set off some commercial fireworks and fire a few of my shells to make them less obvious, but this limits me to November and New year. A location where I could test at will at any time and without any questions would be fantastic.

TC

[sizzle]

Hi Sizzle, Wouldn't a 3" ball shell (or smaller) come under the experimental testing provisions of the UK MSER, or is there other specific legislation referring to shells? Mine use approx. 8g lift, 70g stars, 20g burst so the NEQ is just less than the 100g experimental limit.

TC, I test the shells on remote farmland with the owner's full approval and consent, but not without some nervousness... As you know, most of the things that can go wrong with a shell are hazardous and require time and space to tidy up. It would be difficult to do so safely in an inappropriate location.

re the bigger shells, as many of the founder UKPS members are fireworks professionals, they could quite routinely be testing the huge stuff without drawing unwanted attention.

I don't know the full law, but as far as I've been told the 100g rule is for experimental substances - not devices, so you can have up to 100g of a comp. I seriously doubt shell construction up to 3" in this country is legal though...

[cooperman435]

Lol

I have the same concerns too. Ihave a friendly policeman live 2 doors up my street and have decided to not test his threshold of turning a blind eye.

I now have resorted to driving onto the moors and finding remote layby's that I can see up and down the road far enough for safety and to make sure theres no one within sight range.

I take a friend as a lookout to help pack up to aid a quick exit and to video it.

We fire single shells elecrically meanig its more accurate than lighting a delay fuse just before a car comes into sight and I believe that a no fire is safer with electronics once disconnected than a fuse that could smoulder for hours.

Be carefull people.

It wuld be nice to know roughly where each other live so we could organise between ourselves meets? Anyone near West Yorkshire?

[BrightStar]

I don't know the full law, but as far as I've been told the 100g rule is for experimental substances - not devices, so you can have up to 100g of a comp. I seriously doubt shell construction up to 3" in this country is legal though...

Good point, thanks. As you say, it can't be completely legal...

Just to make everyone even more nervous, 'Fireworks Regulations 2004' makes it illegal for anyone other than a 'fireworks professional' to posess Cat 4 devices, in addition to the storage and supply legislation. This seems to include all amateur fireworks, even fountains in theory. If they are not certified as Cat 2 or 3, they are automatically Cat 4.

I'll just have to get a move on with training and joining a company

Edited by BrightStar, 19 February 2007 - 11:39 PM.

[sizzle]

Good point, thanks. As you say, it can't be completely legal...

Just to make everyone even more nervous, the latest fireworks legislation makes it illegal for anyone other than a 'fireworks professional' to posess Cat 4 devices. This seems to include all amateur fireworks, even fountains in theory. If they are not certified as Cat 2 or 3, they are automatically Cat 4.

I'll just have to get a move on with training and joining a company

Even training doesnt allow you to keep Cat 4 devices, I'm trained, but I'm not allowed to store Cat 4 items unless I have the correct storage lisences and insurance, which costs a small fortune.

[Andrew]

but I'm not allowed to store Cat 4 items unless I have the correct storage lisences and insurance, which costs a small fortune.

Not as expensive (or as difficult) as one might think at first.

MSER
Costs for registration and licences

To register to "Store Explosives" costs:
1 year £60 + £30 to renew
2 years £90 + £60 to renew
3 years £120 + £90 to renew

A licence to "Store Explosives" costs:
1 year £100 + £75 to renew
2 years £150 + £125 to renew
3 years £200 + £175 to renew

A licence to "Manufacture Explosives by means of on-site mixing" costs:
1 year £205 + £115 per hour of inspector time + £73 to renew



The requirement for registration/licence is determined by the amounts you wish to store. The criteria are quite long so I leave you to look up the MSER.

Your storage quota would be determined by what is near your magazine. For Type 4 explosives there is no real problem or us (unless you plan on having over a quarter of a tonne). For type 3 explosives, again not real a problem for us (up to 25kg is not regulated as far as safe distances are concerned). The problem comes with higher order explosives. For type 2 your need 73m between your magazine and any vulnerable building, for type 1 its bloody complicated. As a ROUGH guide, most compositions would be a "hazard type 4 explosive" where as a manufactured device (shell) would be a "hazard type 3 explosive", obviously 500g of flash would be a type 2 or even 1. A larger shell/rocket would be up to about 2 and maybe type 1 if large enough and a sufficient amount were in storage.


I used to paddle for GB, a bit more than a hobby in terms of time I know, but I used to spend well in excess of £2k a year on memberships, insurance, racking fees, boats, paddles and other kit. So compared to this, getting "legal" (turn your shed into an explosives factory ) is relatively inexpensive, certainly not too expensive for 10 or so in the same area to start a club and have a factory in a field somewhere. The previous thoughts about it costing millions are a little out, actually the figure is in the tens of thousands for initial layout to start a small club, maybe that would rise to near £100k if you were looking in the SE of england.

I think the UKPS is frantically at work producing a guide on exactly what you can and can't do etc. and how to go about getting licensed. So support the cause if your already not a member!