9 replies to this topic

[Strobe]

I'm looking for some advice on storage of pyrotechnic chemicals. I have a limited number of locations available to store my chemicals. I assume most amateurs would be confronted with similar limitations, so maybe this will be useful to others.

Basically I have 3 options for storage:

-Inside the house in a locked closet - tempurature controlled but less ideal since its a living space. The room with this closet is reasonably well separated from the bedrooms, kitchen and I dont intend to work with the chems in the house, just storing them if it turns out to be the best place among my various options.

-Inside the garage in a locked steel cabinet - no tempurature control so this will get hot in the summer, some spark hazards are present such as gas pilot, garage door opener etc. Should be safe from water other than potentially a burst pipe.

-Lockable shed in back yard. No temp control, No real spark harzards that I can think of. I do store pesticides here though. Its fairly leak tight so I dont think there is much danger from water.

I know I need to separate Oxidizers and Fuels, so I would store KC, KP, AP, etc separate from Aluminum, Magnesium, Sulphur, Charcole etc. I also believe the solvents such as MEK, Acetone, Denatured Alochol would need separate storage from oxiders and/or fuels

Can Oxidizers be safely stored in a non tempurature controlled environment such as a garage or shed? I would imagine these locations might get up to 120-130F in the summer. I am hesitant to store oxidizers in the house but I am wondering if this may be safer in the long run due to the controlled temps.

If anyone can offer advice, I'd appreciate it. I didnt see any kind of sticky post that summerizes storage guidelines when I searched this board, so perhaps this would be a valuable addition. I've also done some searching on the web and found a few documents that are helpful, but these tend to geared towards Labs and businesses with more space and much greater financial resources at their disposal. I'm also aware of and read the MSDS that come with the chemicals. If helpful, I can post a list of chems I would likey be storing.

[Nickd]

I'm looking for some advice on storage of pyrotechnic chemicals. I have a limited number of locations available to store my chemicals. I assume most amateurs would be confronted with similar limitations, so maybe this will be useful to others.

Basically I have 3 options for storage:

-Inside the house in a locked closet - tempurature controlled but less ideal since its a living space. The room with this closet is reasonably well separated from the bedrooms, kitchen and I dont intend to work with the chems in the house, just storing them if it turns out to be the best place among my various options.

-Inside the garage in a locked steel cabinet - no tempurature control so this will get hot in the summer, some spark hazards are present such as gas pilot, garage door opener etc. Should be safe from water other than potentially a burst pipe.

-Lockable shed in back yard. No temp control, No real spark harzards that I can think of. I do store pesticides here though. Its fairly leak tight so I dont think there is much danger from water.

I know I need to separate Oxidizers and Fuels, so I would store KC, KP, AP, etc separate from Aluminum, Magnesium, Sulphur, Charcole etc. I also believe the solvents such as MEK, Acetone, Denatured Alochol would need separate storage from oxiders and/or fuels

Can Oxidizers be safely stored in a non tempurature controlled environment such as a garage or shed? I would imagine these locations might get up to 120-130F in the summer. I am hesitant to store oxidizers in the house but I am wondering if this may be safer in the long run due to the controlled temps.

If anyone can offer advice, I'd appreciate it. I didnt see any kind of sticky post that summerizes storage guidelines when I searched this board, so perhaps this would be a valuable addition. I've also done some searching on the web and found a few documents that are helpful, but these tend to geared towards Labs and businesses with more space and much greater financial resources at their disposal. I'm also aware of and read the MSDS that come with the chemicals. If helpful, I can post a list of chems I would likey be storing.

Personally I would always a prioritise personel safety, if only to let me sleep easy at nights. therefore I would avoid storing any dangerous chemicals in the house. How ever careful you think you are domestic accident happen. Vapours can build up in any secure cabinets not to mention the fact that most houses are laced with wires ready to short out !
You seem alittle vague about the temperature variations that your chemicals may be subjected to so the first thing is to invest in a couple of max /min themometers and compare different sites in your shed and garage . Then store them in the most temperature stable area..It may be possible for you to improve the temperature regulation for example by adding ventilation bricks or insulating the roof.

[Strobe]

Personally I would always a prioritise personel safety, if only to let me sleep easy at nights. therefore I would avoid storing any dangerous chemicals in the house. How ever careful you think you are domestic accident happen. Vapours can build up in any secure cabinets not to mention the fact that most houses are laced with wires ready to short out !
You seem alittle vague about the temperature variations that your chemicals may be subjected to so the first thing is to invest in a couple of max /min themometers and compare different sites in your shed and garage . Then store them in the most temperature stable area. It may be possible for you to improve the temperature regulation for example by adding ventilation bricks or insulating the roof.

Nick,

I have the same concerns you have regarding chemicals in the living areas, so perhaps my answer is to avoid it entirely. I was hoping if I stuck to solids and was careful about properly containing them, I'd be ok. I'm curious how others manage to keep their chems safely separate from each other. I can't imagine most people having separate temperature controlled environments available, though perhaps the climate in the UK is mild enough not to be of concern.

I'll take your suggestion regarding tempurature monitoring, to get a baseline of how my temps fluctuate but I'm guessing (+/- 10 Deg F) I'll see ranges from 20F - 130F worst case (Which would roughly be -5 - + 55 Celsuis). I may be able decrease the high end number somewhat using your suggestions above, but I doubt I'd get it below 37C on the worst summer days. Given those assumptions, can Oxidizers (KCL03, KCL04, NH4CL04 etc) be safely stored? The MSDS I've read so far just say store in a cool dry place.

[Nickd]

Nick,

I have the same concerns you have regarding chemicals in the living areas, so perhaps my answer is to avoid it entirely. I was hoping if I stuck to solids and was careful about properly containing them, I'd be ok. I'm curious how others manage to keep their chems safely separate from each other. I can't imagine most people having separate temperature controlled environments available, though perhaps the climate in the UK is mild enough not to be of concern.

I'll take your suggestion regarding tempurature monitoring, to get a baseline of how my temps fluctuate but I'm guessing (+/- 10 Deg F) I'll see ranges from 20F - 130F worst case (Which would roughly be -5 - + 55 Celsuis). I may be able decrease the high end number somewhat using your suggestions above, but I doubt I'd get it below 37C on the worst summer days. Given those assumptions, can Oxidizers (KCL03, KCL04, NH4CL04 etc) be safely stored? The MSDS I've read so far just say store in a cool dry place.

There is naturally quite a margin of safety built in to what the storage data sheet suggests for chlorates and nitrates. They can withstand storage temperatures around the figures you mention provided they have not been contaminated with other chemicals or moisture.In the lab chlorates have to be heated to several hundred degrees before decomposing.

[Strobe]

There is naturally quite a margin of safety built in to what the storage data sheet suggests for chlorates and nitrates. They can withstand storage temperatures around the figures you mention provided they have not been contaminated with other chemicals or moisture.In the lab chlorates have to be heated to several hundred degrees before decomposing.

Thanks, I suspected there was a safety margin involved.

Anything else I should be concerned about aside from keeping fuels and oxiderizes separated? If anyone has additional safety tips regarding storage, I'd appreciate hearing about them.

-Strobe

[Mumbles]

I personally don't have a problem with storing chemicals indoors. I actually prefer it due to the relative temperature control, and less exposure to the elements. I just have everything on a set of shelves. No locked or enclosed cabinets. Then again there arn't any small children or pets to get into them or anything.

About the only suggestion I can make is to keep the solvents indoors. Those kind of temperature fluctuations will cause issues with the more volatile chemicals. The range of temperature fluctuations would cause a pressure increase of roughly 25% from the air inside alone. Then the temperature increase would cause a higher vapor pressure as well. It depends on the materials, but a several fold pressure increase would not be out of this world. I am thinking of acetone specifically, it boils slightly above the maximum temperature you described.

For metal fuels, I personal prefer to store them where water contamination won't be an issue. Humidity is water remember. This may also cause an issue with clumping of oxidisers.

It all comes down to a matter of personal comfort. If you had all your chemicals in your basement, could you sleep well at night without worry? That is the real question. If not, I suggest garage. It will at least be somewhat more shielded from temperature the elements.

Another thing to keep in mind is incompatables within groups. Keep the ammonium salts away from chlorates, nitrates, and and copper salts. Probably the best way to do this is to keep Ammonium perchlorate on the top of the cabinet, and the stuff it is incompatable with on the bottom. Everything in the middle will serve as a buffer of sorts should any spill. I also keep my AP bagged and in a secondary container to prevent any spills. Keeps it from caking too.

[Strobe]

I personally don't have a problem with storing chemicals indoors. I actually prefer it due to the relative temperature control, and less exposure to the elements. I just have everything on a set of shelves. No locked or enclosed cabinets. Then again there arn't any small children or pets to get into them or anything.

About the only suggestion I can make is to keep the solvents indoors. Those kind of temperature fluctuations will cause issues with the more volatile chemicals. The range of temperature fluctuations would cause a pressure increase of roughly 25% from the air inside alone. Then the temperature increase would cause a higher vapor pressure as well. It depends on the materials, but a several fold pressure increase would not be out of this world. I am thinking of acetone specifically, it boils slightly above the maximum temperature you described.

For metal fuels, I personal prefer to store them where water contamination won't be an issue. Humidity is water remember. This may also cause an issue with clumping of oxidisers.

It all comes down to a matter of personal comfort. If you had all your chemicals in your basement, could you sleep well at night without worry? That is the real question. If not, I suggest garage. It will at least be somewhat more shielded from temperature the elements.

Another thing to keep in mind is incompatables within groups. Keep the ammonium salts away from chlorates, nitrates, and and copper salts. Probably the best way to do this is to keep Ammonium perchlorate on the top of the cabinet, and the stuff it is incompatable with on the bottom. Everything in the middle will serve as a buffer of sorts should any spill. I also keep my AP bagged and in a secondary container to prevent any spills. Keeps it from caking too.

Thanks for the additional info and your personal perspective, Mumbles.

I think I'm leaning towards a mixture of locations based on heat sensitivity and incompatibilities. I have mixed feelings about storing chems indoors but realistically speaking most of us store all sorts of chemicals in the house that are poisonous and potentially reactive such as bleach, Ammonia, household pesticides, iodine etc.

I like your idea about keeping the containers in individual outer bags, and that was something I was planning to do as well. I also ran across a tip somewhere about keeping the chems on trays that can contain a spill if it does happen. Another source recommends not storing chems on high shelves as this invites the possibility of dropping them when you reach up to take them off the shelf.

The comment you made regarding keeping ammonium salts away from chlorates, nitrates, copper salts etc is the kind of thing I'm looking to put together. I've run across various warnings like the one above, usually in the form of footnotes in composition lists etc, but it would be nice to have them all laid out in one place. I dont have much background in chemisty so some things that might seem obvious to someone who is , dont necessarily stand out as problems to me. I'm aware of the following off the top of my head:

Acids are incompatibles with bases (aside from Boric Acid, its not clear to me which other common pyrotechnic chemicals are acids or which are bases)

Chlorates are incompatible with sulphur compounds

Finely ground Metals are incompatible with water

Oxidizers are incompatible with fuels

Some oxidizers may be incompatible with others such as AP and KNO3 for instance (I think) and I would assume Strontium and Barium Nitrate as well.

Copper Salts and Ammonium salts

Am I missing anything else obvious?

Also, If anyone can recommend a decent chemistry book for begginers I'd appreciate it. I found the following link on the web and have been working through it as I have time, but something with more examples might be helpful.

http://library.think.../low/indexl.htm

Thanks for all the help so far!

[portfire]

Hi strobe
this site may be of some use http://www.chemtutor.com/

I downloaded and printed the whole thing,for quick reference


regards
dean

[Strobe]

Thanks Portfire,

I've booked marked that site and may do the same thing you did in terms of printing it out. I made it to the chapter on empirical formulae on the other site I posted but ran into problems solving a couple of their end of chapter questions. It will be good have another site to read through. Something didnt quick click with me on the empirical formulas and how they are applied in some of the problems. I probably just need to read through it again I guess.

Strobe

[portfire]

Glad it's usefull to you.Also the bbc bitesize site is a good begginers resource ,you can revise then test what you've just learnt.I dont have much background in chemistry like yourself so any begginers resources like bitesize i find very usefull. Anything i find usefull i always print it out as some sites i'v visited that were usefull are no longer there.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...s/gcsebitesize/



regards
dean

Edited by portfire, 06 March 2007 - 05:20 PM.