51 replies to this topic

[StevenRS]

It seems every forum but this one had a thread on it, so here goes...

For alot of people, (me), aluminum powder is really hard to get. Is there any way that it could be made fairly easily at home, using common household products?
I am aware of several of the existing methods, like using an angle grinder or salt and foil in a blender, but do these really work?
The preferred feedstock would be aluminum foil, as it it easy to get and very cheap.

The yield does not have to be very big, but a nice, fine mesh would be good.

Also, is it possible to ball mill aluminum? I suppose lead couldn't be used as a media, what about tungsten or steel?

I have always liked to make as much of my stuff as I can instead of buying it anyway. (Thinking sour grapes fable)

[ProfHawking]

Im pretty sure we have threads on it already.
Anyway, I've not tried it, but from what I've read the standard practice seems to be to rip up foil in a coffee grinder, then put the shreds in a ball mill.
You want the ball mill to be as large as possible so that the balls smash the alu pretty hard. And you need very hard media. I would guess steel or ceramic works well. There is also the problem of making it oxidise regularly, as milling it in a confined jar then finally opening it can cause it to react suddenly when the jar is finally opened.
I think Steve has had some success with it, he may be able offer some useful tips.

[Andrew]

For alot of people, (me), aluminum powder is really hard to get.

Why? It's pretty cheap and there are many internet mail order places that sell it! You don't save much by making it yourself unless you can get hold of bulk Aluminium foil.


Anyway, as the prof said, it can be done and there are several threads on the topic. Steve and I have made a massive ball mill, you'll need one btw, to mill Al foil. Steve also made a smaller mill using steel bar and there was a significant mass fraction below 200#, good results are achievable. We used a cross cut paper shredder to cut the foil into small bits and then it is milled.

[Draco_Americanus]

I get most of my aluminum from e-bay, there are questionable sellers but over all i have had good results

[Asteroid]

I believe it's possible to turn atomized aluminium into flake by milling it, if thats what you're after. Atomized aluminum is much easier to get hold of. Hope this helps.

[BigBang]

Aluminium powder is not hard to get hold of. In fact there are no end of sellers! Not really worth the effort of making it. Expect to pay about £10 for 500g

As for ebay, yes some of the sellers are questionable, but there a number of very good sellers on there as well. A quick read thru their feedback and you'll soon find the descent ones.

[Andrew]

I've only seen two or three legal sellers on eBay, and they often give up after long due to the harassment they receive. The illegal sellers are favoured at eBay because eBay believes it is above the law. Thus the illegal sellers that adhere to the eBay ethos of only offering Paypal (what a f*cking rip off), only using eBay's "legally binding contract" and not having eBay members enter into a separate agreement, do well.

For your own safety (both physical and security) I'd at least the check the company is registered on the Data Protection Act and that they would adhere to it's quota if the police raided them. I'd also check that they are not going to send toxic stuff by royal mail, badly packaged and illegally labelled. You have to remember you also have a duty of care when purchasing hazardous products, not just the supplier. If they look suss, and you don't cover your arse by checking, you do not have much to go on when the law drag you through court for facilitating someone's injuries, when the supplier drags you down by saying "well they bought it". Sounds ludicrous I know but there is case law of it happening, on a larger scale mind, but it's only a matter of time before the CPS think that they will try and apply corporate case law to the public. You also have to bare in mind that you could receive an unexpected visit, a naffed up front door and a whole load of hassle if your details are handed out willy nilly and not held until a specific warrant is issued. I reckon every eBay seller that does not look like they do everything by the book would hand over all their records if they wanted to avoid a trip to the station or a warrant.

Them there is your physical safety, I know of only one or two current eBay sellers that put CHIP compliant retail labels on their packaging. Sending an MSDS to a public retail customer is illegal, it is the law that one must provide a full unabbreviated label on any hazardous product. Most cellotape a pieces of printed paper with an incorrect name onto the packaging. If your not fully up to speed with the dangers of that particular product you could find yourself in hospital very fast. I've seen carcinogenic substances for sale without even an industrial label on it, let alone a retail label, yet eBay will only harass sellers that they ignorantly choose.

So just bare in mind that buying from eBay can be an act that leaves you responsible for something you should not have to be, always check:
1. They are covered by the DPA.
2. They stick to it.
3. They provide products in CHIP compliant packaging.
4. They provide a full unabbreviated CHIP compliant retail label.
5. They provide adequate shipping services.
6. They will not just fob you off with a crap illegal MSDS that they pulled off the internet.
7. They employ a DGSA as is required by law.



Onto the Aluminium point....
You can only really buy powder at the moment, flitter is very hard to come by. So making flitter for fountains, shells, mines etc. is your only choice at the moment. As mentioned a lot in this thread though powder (200#+) is easier to just buy. Flake powders are a bit harder to come by but they are out there, again for ultra fine flake powder your better off making it yourself.

On that note, you need a ball mill, see the ball mill thread it's massive.

[BrightStar]

You can only really buy powder at the moment, flitter is very hard to come by. So making flitter for fountains, shells, mines etc. is your only choice at the moment.

Indeed - its frustrating given the recent talk of Shimizu Firefly #5 on the forum. It would be very nice to have some flitter and firefy Al in the UK for comets, stars, waterfalls etc.

Steve - Is there an opportunity for Inoxia here? It seems you could turn a profit amongst us hopeless pyro addicts, particularly if you still have the giant mill

Edited by BrightStar, 25 May 2007 - 10:52 PM.

[cooperman435]

I can get flake ali no problems but I have to order 25 kg at a time so would need enough buyers to divide it up?

its around the 120 mesh grade and will be in the region of £21 a kg if anyone is interested

[Andrew]

120# is a bit fine for some applications though, but it fills a gap.

[sasman]

I havent found any cheap suppliers of flitter aluminium in small amounts.. i have paid £20 X 500g.. Which i thought was ok..

But when i phoned Ekchart Aluminium the prices are much cheaper around £10 Kg for various grades of Al powder..The catch is you have to buy 25 kg amounts..

[Andrew]

The catch is you have to buy 25 kg amounts..

Pretty big catch....

[digger]

Pretty big catch....

First a quick hello to all the members. I have been reading this site for while and have started building up my chemical supplies (and waiting and waiting for an order from one of the less reliable suppliers , have a guess who?).

One of the things that I am interested in is a good flitter aluminum. I don't know what the rules are but is there any possibility of a group buy for certain powders from Eckart so that a few of us can reduce the cost to a sensible level given enough interested parties in a given area.

P.S. I am in the north east and would be happy to take a few kg of each usefull flake.

Edited by digger, 29 May 2007 - 12:11 PM.

[Resix]

To powder Al foil, the best way is to do a replacement reaction. This also works to powder Mg, but I'll get to that after.

Summary:
2Al(s) + 6HCl(aq) => 3H2(g) + 2AlCl3(aq)
3Mg(s) + 2AlCl3(aq) => 3MgCl2(aq) +2Al(s)
Once Mg is added, the Al will float on top. If ribbon was used, it can easly be separated from the powder floating on top.

As you can see, H2 gas will be produced, so you will want proper ventilation when doing this.

Application

Materials:
Gloves
Large Glass container
1 or more Smaller glass containers
Coffee filter
Chemicals:
H2O (Ice and liquid)
NaCl
HCl (Muriatic acid)
Al (foil)
Reducer (Mg Ribbon)
Optional:
NaOH
K (pure solid)

Process:
Put on GLOVES!
Place your smaller glass containers into the large one.
Fill the smaller glass containers with HCl (fill about 2 inchs or so)
Pour ice around the containers
Add some water and NaCl to the ice to create a ice bath.
Add Al foil to the HCl untill absorption stops, then remove excess. (H2 will be produced during this time, along with heat)
Add Reducer (Mg Ribbon works superb, and allows one to collect powdered Mg if proper reduces are also present.)
Pour solution into a coffee filter, and wash a few times with water (I do once with a NaOH, then water 3 times)

I am not sure the mesh on this powder, because I've never screened it, but it is fine. It works well for thermite.

From here, you have many possibilities. If you used Mg, you can now add Potassium metal to this, to get KCl3, which can then be used in a Perchlorate cell to make KClO4, and at the same time, cause Mg powder to form.
But - DO NOT do this without the ice bath. I did that for my fist time, and the glass cracked, and hot HCl poured on my shoes and ruined the grass...

Anyway, this can be used to powder any of the following reducers except Li, because you would need a stronger reducer than that, and I don't know of any others. (They may, and probably do exist, but my chemistry knowledge is limited to high school chem + experiments.)

Lithium (strongest)-> Potassium-> Barium-> Strontium-> Calcium-> Sodium-> Magnesium-> Beryllium-> Aluminum-> Manganese-> Vanadium-> Chromium

On a side note, thank you guys for all the posts you have contributed. I read this forum 2-3 times a day, and I figured my first post should give something back to the community.

[marble]

Interesting, i remember reading something about this on rougesci, he seemed to think it was worth it but there were questions about the foil being coated in something to make it shiny affecting the quality of the alu.

It does seem like a lot of work (for a small amount of product) when it is not to hard to buy anyway.