17 replies to this topic

[Logicismyonlyguide]

Well as I am just getting started as a hobby though a lot of research over the last few days I learnt quite a lot.

I saw smoke b**bs bing a good way to get into the hobby as a beginner due to the lack of BP. Yet the question on UK laws i been struggling to answer.

I know about the small 100g of BP being the most you can have at any one time still seems a bit odd seems quite low.

So how legal are smoke b**bs? Is it illegal over public land and roads or completely illegal?

[maxman]

Assuming you mean kn03 and sugar melt with a bit of fuse stuck out and nothing very big to cause annoyance to neighbours. I would imagine you should be just fine. If you're going to make a very large one and set it off even in a field you will probably attract atention just by the sheer amout of smoke. Someone will most likely ring the fire brigade and so on and so on. Use common sense be safe and dont annoy people!

[marble]

Is it illegal over public land and roads or completely illegal?

Let off a smoke b**b on a public road and you deserve everything you get

[Asteroid]

If you push for an answer you'll get the 100g limit, whigh applies to everything. If you're sensible and don't wind anyone up you won't have a problem with bigger ones. Use your common sense

[Logicismyonlyguide]

Assuming you mean kn03 and sugar melt with a bit of fuse stuck out and nothing very big to cause annoyance to neighbours. I would imagine you should be just fine. If you're going to make a very large one and set it off even in a field you will probably attract atention just by the sheer amout of smoke. Someone will most likely ring the fire brigade and so on and so on. Use common sense be safe and dont annoy people!

Kn03 and sugar melt.

Very true.

Umm also that public road comment was what i knew was completely illegal. I was asking if it was completely illegal for all uses (back garden or party) is pretty much what I ment.

I was making sure it was legal after I checked all the BP laws so I do not break the law.

For example selling and manufacturing of French bangers are completely illegal always best to be on the right side of the law i say.

[Logicismyonlyguide]

Let off a smoke b**b on a public road and you deserve everything you get

I agree. But my orginal post was worded badly on that line.

I was aiming for an answer to how the Uk law views them. I know there called smoke screens in the US and people get into a lot of trouble. (i'm usinga US and a UK forums to teach myself basics of pyrotechnics before i try anything) US one covers a lot of safety and best methods. While this one I have not used that much let.

so hello everyone.

KNO3 + sugar + ??? depends for smoke colour choice.

[BrightStar]

For example selling and manufacturing of French bangers are completely illegal always best to be on the right side of the law i say.

Hi Logic... good to see a new member on the forum... hope your pyro studies are going well

A few quick notes that might help - 100g of really good BP is NOT a small amount!!! 4g of hot lift BP with a 1.5" comet can be louder than a shotgun. 100g of KNO3 / sucrose smoke comp will easily burn your house down. In other contexts it's called 'rocket fuel'... it's subject to the same rules as everything else.

Since 2004 it is illegal to set off any fireworks in a UK public place, or in any location after 11:00 pm at night... Anything you make, even a small smoke can or fountain is theoretically a Category 4 professional firework. As you figured out, testing this you need to be even more responsible... Test it as soon as you make it, well away from any public places. With care, you can have lots of fun legally testing your smoke

Edited by BrightStar, 29 May 2007 - 06:33 PM.

[Logicismyonlyguide]

Hi Logic... good to see a new member on the forum... hope your pyro studies are going well

A few quick notes that might help - 100g of really good BP is NOT a small amount!!! 4g of hot lift BP with a 1.5" comet can be louder than a shotgun.

100g of KNO3 / sucrose smoke comp will easily burn your house down. In other contexts it's called 'rocket fuel'... it's subject to the same rules as everything else.

Since 2004 it is illegal to set off any fireworks in a UK public place, or in any location after 11:00 pm at night... Anything you make, even a a small smoke can or fountain is theoretically a Category 4 professional firework. As you figured out, testing this you need to be even more careful and be well away from the public.

Thanks its a good forum Still trying to navigate different set up from other 3 I regular use.

So if I have decent grade BP then I require less in the fireworks I build to get desired effect.

Yes I have a work area in a shed with all construction and mixing of chemicals will be outside for the pure reason of safety.

Hmmm such an interesting subject and hobby covered with a minefield of laws. I live in Devon which on the plus side means i can get far away from any human being with in an hour walk we atm as soon as they expand the town again it may be a different story.

[Asteroid]

You won't be able to colour a kno3 smoke comp, since it burns too hot. I'm sure you understand why there's a minefield of laws, and so long as you're sensible, you'll be fine.

[Andrew]

The law to refer to is the MSER passed in 2005.

It states that you can make up to 100g of any explosive for research and experimental purposes. The 100g limit was set with HE in mind so in that respect 100g of BP is nothing. To put it into perspective 100g of BP is still enough to blast the sh*t out of a house, a wall, a car, a shed or turn a person into mostly liquid and flaps of skin and shard of bone. So in this respect, 100g of BP is a f*cking lot. Apply this 100g limit to confined flash powder and your really asking for trouble, even dental records are a no-no, DNA being your only hope there.

The term "explosive" in the MSER refers to a pretty much exhaustive list of all explosive molecules and mixtures. For Pyro, the lingo for the making of compositions is "manufacture of explosives by means of on-site mixing". The term "experimental" pretty much excludes making a device and taking it somewhere else to "test", there is a provision for this but you need a licence to manufacture explosives if you want to transport it after it's manufacture, then the transport is covered by the "Carriage of Dangerous Goods by Road Act". To qualify for experimental purposes you need to make it in situ (in it place of use), and then test it with only people exclusively involved in the "research" present (basically you cannot make something, drive it round to your mates and then show them).

The making of 50g of one explosive and the 50g of another, and then making a device with them is a bit of a shady area; it could be argued that to fully test the explosive properly, it needs to be observed working within a device, i.e. a Roman candle needs to be constructed to test the true blow out properties of the stars and the ability of the grain powder to lift and the ignition limits of the star. However, with little case law to go by, you don't want to be the one to try it out in front of an ignorant Judge on a bad day!

Heed to other's advice and be sensible, don't draw attention to yourself and do not f*ck off the neighbours. Don't even go round saying that you make fireworks because there is always one that will want to "ruin your sh*t", by going to the police and pushing unwanted attention in your direction.

For the exact text from the MSER see this LINK, and this LINK

you could always get licensed, it does not cost that much.

[Farnet]

The law to refer to is the MSER passed in 2005.

It states that you can make up to 100g of any explosive for research and experimental purposes. The 100g limit was set with HE in mind so in that respect 100g of BP is nothing. To put it into perspective 100g of BP is still enough to blast the sh*t out of a house, a wall, a car, a shed or turn a person into mostly liquid and flaps of skin and shard of bone. So in this respect, 100g of BP is a f*cking lot. Apply this 100g limit to confined flash powder and your really asking for trouble, even dental records are a no-no, DNA being your only hope there.

Hi Guys

And thanks for letting me join your Forum.

Ironically, I was talking to a member of the Firearms and Explosives Licensing Department Leicestershire Constabulary yesterday regarding exactly this, and I have to say you are right regarding it being a VERY grey area within UK legislation and to actually publically notify the police of your intention of holding potentially (or actual) explosive compounds within a private dwelling opens up a whole can of worms. ranging from the purchasing of restricted chemicals (ie Pot. Permanganate... please excuse my spelling), the construction of explosives (BP) and the creation of fireworks (of which the trading standard may take an interest, even if it is for personal use).

The officer I was speaking to to was extremely nice,helpful and was completely down to earth, he even mentioned as few things off record as examples and ideas, but he did warn me, that even if everything goes smoothly I will end up being visited by the police force to ensure I was using adequate containment and I'm not a member of an organisation (if you know what I mean), he even stated that if you are using you shed for storage and its (for example) 50 meters down the garden and nowhere near any other houses, all trees etc around it may need to be removed as they will provide suitable cover for someone attempting to break into the aformentioned shed to steal whatever you have.

To cut to the chase, I'm intending on giving it a go, and see what actually happens, since I have tried a few times over the years to see if the Police/government have actually set out rulings for individuals getting a restricted license for private / village displays and have got no where, I have even got a senior policeman from Notts asking me to contact him if I ever find a resolution to this as he'd be interested in promoting an 'individual' license scheme for displays and the sensible usage of fireworks etc.

From what I can gather though the law does vary quite considerably from county to county, eg. In Notts to be able to buy nitro for making bull@ts you need a firearms certificate and have to sign for the purchase, in Derbyshire you need to sign for it, and in Leicestershire you can walk in and just buy it over the counter without a firearms license or proof of ID. This may have changed but it seemed the case a few years ago when I last tried. and the guy in the shop in Leicestershire gave me the low down. So wish me luck as I have to read through the MSER and then write a comprehensive letter requesting a license explaining exactly my intentions and listing all the chemicals I intend to store by their UN number..... I really don't know where to start so I firstly intend to learn as much as possible from you guys and to read up as much (many books on order). to give myself as much ammo for getting an actually certificate.

If I am completely wrong in any aspect, please feel free to shoot me down in flames as I would rather that than give anybody misguided information.

Farnet

BTW from just reading the do's and don'ts within this forum I have to say first impressions this is a cracking site.

[Logicismyonlyguide]

Ok wow talk about confusing.

Ok so I could talk to the local police and find out about local county law.

But that sounds like it will cause a lot of problems well I can talk to local council.

[Andrew]

ranging from the purchasing of restricted chemicals (ie Pot. Permanganate... please excuse my spelling), the construction of explosives (BP) and the creation of fireworks (of which the trading standard may take an interest, even if it is for personal use).

Nothing is restricted, there are chemicals covered by the poisons act, which mainly restricts the sale of, and other prescribed chemicals, but nothing we use in pyro is restricted by any law (acept ascenic and barium compounds as they are poisons).



On the getting legal note, the MSER sets out who you need to apply to and how to go about doing it, read this post if your interested in fees etc. The HSE are the only people you need speak to, once your registered to store and licensed to manufacture, then you inform the police on a personal level who and where you are. Part of the licencing involves the police and the fire brigade, as well as HSE officials paying a visit to your "site".

If one is totally open and legit there is nothing to worry about, ignorance is our enemy, don't speak to the local council until you really have to, their general ignorance can cause all sorts of problems. If you do go down the licencing route, do report back on your progress. Until then we are limited to "the manufacture of explosives for the purpose of laboratory analysis, testing, demonstration or experimentation (but not for practical use or sale) where the total quantity of explosives being manufactured at any time does not exceed 100 grams" red text from MSER 2005, which is copyrighted so cite 'copy and pastes'!

Edited by Andrew, 01 June 2007 - 09:48 AM.

[Farnet]

Andrew, that is VERY interesting and thank you for replying. I am seriously going to look at the HSE licensing, mainly because I have a bit of a reputation within the village for fireworks, to the stage of being called Mr Firework man by people that don't know me by name, they do mean it in a good way.....I hope

Regarding the council, I contacted them a couple of years ago after doing a display for 400+ people in the village, and was personally worried about my situation in regards to being covered for accidents etc (even thought the pub stated that the show is free and wasn't classified as an organised display and people were watching at their own risk, I still fealt somewhat prone) I found that I stood more chance of banging a 6 inch nail into a block of wood with a soft boiled egg than get a constructive response from them, they really didn't have a clue and couldn't really recommend anything, or even be bothered. By complete contrast the counties police were so eager to help and gave many recommendations in aid to sort things out which was pleasantly suprising, and in my opinion it is them that count in the long run, as it would be them kicking my door down if they were unhappy about something.

Before seeing this website I nebver realised that we were allowed to even keep (or manufacture) even 0.001 of a gram of burning powder, let alone flash.

Edited by Farnet, 01 June 2007 - 08:48 PM.

[Andrew]

I've found with the police that you can get hold of who you want/need pretty quick. But with the council (albeit some are very organised), even the most organised cannot tell you who you speak to regarding public displays and approval etc; if its not about the bins they cannot help (even then they usually can't anyway). The best route is to go down the local fire station and ask there- who it is at the council you need to speak to, as they need to be in on the loop at some stage thus know who they deal with.

With getting a licence for manufacture, the council are definately the last port of call, only to inform them you have one.