12 replies to this topic

[paul 1]

Hi all,

I am a new member to this forum. This subject is what primarily attracted me to chemistry as a youngster. In fact it was a science teacher at secondary school who spurred this interest by conducting numerous pyrotechnic experiments after class for some interested students, me being one. If not for these experiments it is doubtful I would have continued with science and obtained a PhD in chemistry. Let’s face it, much of the core theoretical side of science is rather boring, however, without this essential knowledge it is impossible to continue. Such experiments show students that science can be interesting and bridge this barrier. One wonders if there is a correlation between schools stopping such experiments and the decline of science in this country. This is now propagating to universities and many of you will have heard of university chemistry departments closing in the UK. I would be interested to hear comments on this view.

It is reassuring that so many others in the UK are interested in pyrotechnics. I am in agreement with some members of this forum that the common public attitude of all amateur pyrotechnologists being lunatics is one of ignorance. There is a world of difference between a person interested in science and wanting to experiment with pyrotechnics for personal fun and someone wanting to use this knowledge to either damage property or hurt people. However, the general public are not also renowned for commonsense.

The above is all my personal opinion and just that. I am not familiar with the law with regards to individuals experimenting with pyrotechnics but I can imagine that it is grey and patchy. However, given the present “terror mad” situation in the UK it is not wise for anyone to be making or storing chemicals for pyrotechnic means. This is not my opinion but a fact. Many of the emails to this forum make interesting reading, particularly the “100g rule” on black powder and the purchasing of chemicals. Most chemical companies in the UK will not sell to private individuals and are likely to contact the police if that individual attempts purchase for the purpose of making exothermic material. I would like to draw attention to a news story covered not so long ago in the northwest where an individual from Liverpool was attempting to purchase chemicals to make an amateur pyrotechnic video. This individual actually made it on national news, prosecuted and lost his job. I can’t remember but I think he received a non-custodial sentence. Given the sentence they obviously believed his motives where not malicious.

I personally see you all as fellow scientists but we live in an irrational world where it only takes a malicious neighbour or so called friend to cause you a world of trouble. The message is not to spoil anyone’s fun but to be very careful. I welcome comments.

Paul

[digger]

Yes when I was younger I was also inspired by a chemistry teacher that did pyrotechnic experiments. Although I was lucky and had a number of great teachers including physics etc and ended up becoming a chemical engineer (as you are probably aware more physics than chemistry).

Whilst I agree that the "general public" are largely ignorant there are those that understand (my next door neighbour supplies me with some of the oxidisers I use). You can also minimise the chance of that knock on the door by the way in which you conduct the hobby (very well discussed already on this site).

I hope that forums/societies such as this manage to get properly organised with manufacturing/testing sites (as is currently being done by this society) with correct registration to prevent criminalisation of this hobby.

Edited by digger, 10 July 2007 - 11:47 AM.

[marble]

My school science was boring:

"Now add the HCl (which was so watered down you could use it for eyedrops) to a beaker and then add 3 drops of universal indicator - arnt you amazed what science can do!!"
Still there was the opportunity for things to go 'missing'

At least you have some basic legal guidelines and places to buy what you want. Down here it seems that no one has any idea whats legal and whats not, there is nothing for any hobbyist's go by (except for that ammonium nitrate is banned and you will get arrested for possession and most likely get labeled a terrorist, which shits me to no end. Do they think that banning it will stop someone making a real b**b?)

Pretty much all pyro is illegal or heavily restricted here but the cops don't seem to care as long as your not shooting it off in street. Your not alone in the declining numbers of people studying science, seems to be happening across all western nations. Its so frustrating that i have to order something 3000 miles away that should be easily available here but assumably because of the bureaucratic bullshit that goes on anyone who tries to openly sell something that ends with ate gets shutdown and god knows what else. Im sure it will all even out in 50 years time when we realize that we screwed three or four generations of potential scientists.

Edited by marble, 10 July 2007 - 01:25 PM.

[YT2095]

I share your concerns also.
although it`s Not just the terrorism related events but the junkies cooking up god knows what to get high on, as for schools it`s now become such a litigious society that you daren`t Cough without a face mask in case some parent sues you, it`s such a pity that that a few bad apples spoil it for the rest of us

my 2 year old daughter will not be subject to todays "watered down science" where bicarb and vinigar reactions need 3 sheets of paperwork filling in and risk assesments made and have her brain formed into a pink homogenous blob that fits nicely into their dogmatic spam can!

she will have access to Everything she wants and needs in the Lab, and will be able to see and do all the things that was I allowed to at school.
teaching by wrote is not teaching, it`s Programming and I think we owe the next generation a bit more respect than that. our job should be to incite Curiosity and Questions, and then provide the resources needed so that they may find out and teach themselves.

as for having the "door knocked" I have no objection to that at all as long as it`s a reasonable hour and not 3 in the morning or Tea time!

< /rant>

Edited by YT2095, 10 July 2007 - 02:16 PM.

[Asteroid]

And Gordon Brown wonders why less people and going into science based occupations? School just isn't the advert to get kids hooked anymore. Hopefully he will follow through and increase funding, however I think the health and safety is a downward spiral for all aspects of life, not just science

[BrightStar]

I think the health and safety is a downward spiral for all aspects of life, not just science

Probably true, but there are always workarounds if people put their minds to it. Often these workarounds leave them safer than before.

I used to do quite a bit of theatre technical work and would often have people wobbling on ladders carrying heavy loads or focusing hot lanterns with live 240v wiring (415v if you messed up the phases). We would build shaky scaff towers and rig enormous follow-spots on them 25ft in the air. No training, just our common sense.

I had a climbing expert friend and would ask him to harness up the operators just in case, and whenever we needed to, found some local builders to check my scaff rigging...

These days, health and safety would ban all this fun. What has been interesting though has been to see the reaction to it. Some venues have stopped allowing volunteers to do technical work altogether, citing ' impossible health and safety'. The more enlightened organisations sent their tech guys on training courses. They are now properly trained to build scaff towers, work at height etc. etc. and are much safer and happier than before. So the legislation isn't all bad.

One huge problem we have in schools at the moment is that the science teachers are increasingly teaching outside of their own areas of expertise. They don't have the training, time or resources to jump through H & S hoops and so are understandably avoiding the practical work.

With a sensible budget, well behaved kids, good lab techs etc. etc. it seems that the H & S legislation is possible to work with, but many schools are being left behind. I have teacher friends who have jumped ship from the state to private sector, just to teach 'real science' again... Not good...

Edited by BrightStar, 13 July 2007 - 10:07 PM.

[pyrotrev]

I'm not against H & S, but I do think the people who create the legislation need to be less concerned about the "covering your arse if something goes wrong" aspect, take a step back and look at the bigger picture sometimes, since it's important that the requirement for doing something safely doesn't stop you doing it at all, which in the case of science education is a bad thing. And actually makes things more dangerous sometimes - for example if you haven't come across strong acids at first hand and had the fear of God put into you, later on in life you might end up damaging yourself or your family.

[YT2095]

I think instead of the H&S legislation saying "NO" to all sorts of things, that money would be better spent of Education with "Just say KNOW" as it`s credo.

a Little knowledge is dangerous, Full Knowledge realises the potential for danger on its own and takes steps to prevent it without having been told to.
a teachers job should be breed curiosity and a love of learning.

sorry, but it`s a real Issue of mine, I don`t mean to Rant per se.

[EnigmaticBiker]

- for example if you haven't come across strong acids at first hand and had the fear of God put into you, later on in life you might end up damaging yourself or your family.

Utterly agree, ignorance is not safe and by definition, Nanny will never prevent all possible dangers without infantilising people.
Life is risky, learning how to deal effectively with and make good decisions about risks seems the best way of handling them.

Every time someone drives a vehicle on the road they run a greater risk of hurting others than practicing pyrotechnics.
If an adult makes a mistake and hurts themselves, that's their business.

No apology for ranting.

[paul 1]

And Gordon Brown wonders why less people and going into science based occupations? School just isn't the advert to get kids hooked anymore. Hopefully he will follow through and increase funding, however I think the health and safety is a downward spiral for all aspects of life, not just science

Fully agree.

The health and safety guys make every ones job more difficult. In my experience most are incompetent and spend most of their time dreaming up new nonsense to justify fat salaries. Don’t get me wrong health and safety in the workplace is welcome so long as commonsense is applied, but sadly, many of these pen-pushers lack this basic quality. I have been in jobs where you are expected to work with materials and in conditions I would consider dangerous and they are never around. They are usually sending emails about the dangers of not adopting the correct posture when working at the computer or hassling someone for not filling in a risk assessment when using 10 ml of ethanol.

One occasion I recall is when a friend got into an argument over pouring aqueous sodium chloride solution down the sink. The health and safety man said this contained chloride and should have been emptied into halogenated waste along with the chloroform and methylene chloride. The same man thought it a good idea to store all the pyrophoric laboratory chemicals with the hundreds of litres of general purpose laboratory solvents because “their all flammable”. Another case included storing 70% perchloric acid in the same cupboard as acetic and propionic acids.

I also find that many companies are more concerned with emission targets than the safety of their staff. Many of these fill in risk assessments after the experiment is conducted. In short I think the whole situation is a farce. I don’t need to be told to wear safety specs when using dangerous chemicals, its commonsense and should be drummed into every school kid at an early age. Also, only a fool starts handling and mixing chemicals without knowing the associated dangers of each component and the likely reaction. Given that, why should you have to fill in a booklet of paper work each time you do a simple experiment?

The decline of the chemical and other industries in this country is partly down to these pen-pushers by making every simple task require a mountain of paper work. The environmentalists also have a part to play by making it so costly to manufacture in this country. So what’s the answer? I know, let’s all buy from China where it’s cheaper and they pour all their chemical waste in a local river and kill everyone! Surely it would be better to manufacture in this country under the much higher standards we adopt.

Sorry for ranting but this topic hits a sore point.

Paul

[YT2095]

One occasion I recall is when a friend got into an argument over pouring aqueous sodium chloride solution down the sink. The health and safety man said this contained chloride and should have been emptied into halogenated waste

the H&S guy would Really hate me then, I not only do that, but I actually pour Boiling NaCl(aq) down the sink!


every time the Pasta`s cooked

[Victor]

Hope more and more guys will be interetiong pyrotechnics.

[spectrum]

You all make very good points and I am generally very impressed by the degree of knowledge and intelligence which comes across from many of the comments made throughout the forums.

I come from a different direction than most of you and work in the subject for a living, we have a licensed factory in which we produce commercial pyrotechnics, Research and Development is constantly on the go and we are transparently accountable to the Health and Safety Executive.

I don't have an axe to grind but do take on board the comments about life being more difficult nowadays - that is certainly true, Risk assessments etc. do not speed the job up but they are there for a reason and unlike you guys I have no option but to accept that. I do think however it is a bit unfair to paint a general picture of health and safety in an entirely negative way. Our Inspector actually worked in industry for a number of years and thus has practical, hands-on experience in pyrotechnics. He is entirely helpful, approachable and professional.

I really do think there should be more effort put into exploring the legal options in pursuing the activity, I genuinely believe that there is no place for pyrotechnic experimentation within a domestic environment and the thing that needs to be remembered is that the Health and Safety Executive exists not simply to come down on people doing so but to protect others who may be affected by that. Obtaining a license is not an impossibility and really should be explored, given the depth of knowledge many of you demonstrate in approaching and solving other problems, this one should actually be easy!