36 replies to this topic

[Bonny]

I was wondering if SrNO3 can be made using SrCO3 and NH4NO3? I don't have any HNO3, but I do have SrCO3 and a bunch of cold packs...

Edited by Bonny, 30 August 2007 - 05:54 PM.

[YT2095]

it can be done sure, but you will need heating for the reaction, that will breakdown the ammonium carbonate to CO2 and NH3.

[Bonny]

it can be done sure, but you will need heating for the reaction, that will breakdown the ammonium carbonate to CO2 and NH3.

How would I go about this though? Be nice if it was as easy as stirring dry ingredients together...then heating.I'm assuming water can't be used, as the NH4NO3 would react with the water right away. No idea how to start this one.

[YT2095]

why would it react?
it will Get Cold sure, as the ions separate it`s quite endothermic (hence cold packs) , but it doesn`t alter it chemically
then you add the SrCO3, when the liquid has warmed up a little (room temp is fine).
make sure the sr carb is in excess too, then you Must heat the liquid, that will break down the Ammonium carb into a gas.
make sure you still have unreacted Sr Carb in the pot though! you don`t want ANY unreacted AN in there.
when you cant smell any ammonia coming off you`re about good to go

you`ll need to add a some more water, and then Filter this soln, heat again to reduce the water a little and then just evap as normal until crystals form.
slow evap is Good too, you get bigger crystals and can see all the great shapes they make, Sr(NO3)2 is one of the neatest looking crystaline formS (yes plural) that I`v seen from such simple ingredients.

[Bonny]

why would it react?
it will Get Cold sure, as the ions separate it`s quite endothermic (hence cold packs) , but it doesn`t alter it chemically
then you add the SrCO3, when the liquid has warmed up a little (room temp is fine).
make sure the sr carb is in excess too, then you Must heat the liquid, that will break down the Ammonium carb into a gas.
make sure you still have unreacted Sr Carb in the pot though! you don`t want ANY unreacted AN in there.
when you cant smell any ammonia coming off you`re about good to go

you`ll need to add a some more water, and then Filter this soln, heat again to reduce the water a little and then just evap as normal until crystals form.
slow evap is Good too, you get bigger crystals and can see all the great shapes they make, Sr(NO3)2 is one of the neatest looking crystaline formS (yes plural) that I`v seen from such simple ingredients.

I guess I was thinking the cold was the AN reacting with the water... Hopefully try this one in the next week or so. Thanks

[Bonny]

Just trying to work out the chemistry here:

2NH4NO3 + SrCO3 = Sr(NO3)2 + (NH4)2CO3 is this correct? Trying to calculate weight (ratios) of NH4NO3 and SrCO3 to use but need to know if reaction is right first.

Then when heat is applied:
(NH4)2CO3---> 2NH3 + CO2 +H2O ??? I was having a hard time trying to balance w/o the water...

Edited by Bonny, 07 September 2007 - 05:38 PM.

[YT2095]

your balancing is just fine, but you will need to apply heat at every stage. as the reaction direction has to be reversed.
for instance if you had strontium nitrate and added ammonium carbonate, you would get Ammonium nitrate and strontium carbonate Very easily, almost instantly at room temp, that is the direction the reaction Wants to go naturally.

you have to Force it backwards with a lot of heat, this will drive off the volatile Ammonia gas, and with That out of the equasion the reaction progresses in the direction you want it to quite nicely

it would have been Much easier using strontium Hydroxide or Oxide even.

[hst45]

Try this link for some info:

http://www.sciencema...;page=1#pid1002

It's surprisingly simple. I haven't tried it with strontium, but it does work with barium carbonate.

[YT2095]

Sr Carb is doable but you need plenty of heat, in effect you`re trying to Reverse the natural direction of the reaction, as you mentioned Barium would be even Harder and maybe not even possible.

[Bonny]

I think I have everything ready to try this, just want to check my approximate weight ratios
2NH4NO3 + SrCO3 ----> Sr(NO3)2
160g + 148g----> 211g + (NH4)2CO3...

The SrCO3 is from a ceramic shop, so not likely too pure... maybe I should increase by about 10 or 15% to ensure excess to complete the reaction.

[YT2095]

I suggest you do a Small scale version 1`st, it really takes quite a bit of heat (Boiling) to drive off the Ammonia and Co2 to swing the reaction direction in your favor.

a Gallon of it for instance would need a day to boil (outdoors of course) and regular topping up with water.
it Is Doable, but it`s hard work!

so try a small amount 1`st, and keep the carbonate in excess, it`s the AN traces you don`t want!, the Carbonate is mostly insoluble anyway and so after filtering it`s negligible

[Bonny]

Out of curiosity, could this same reaction be used to produce barium nitrate from barium carbonate? I only have 1 source for HNO3 but it is very expensive. I have looked into making it (HNO3) from sulfuric, but seems a little too complicated for me.

[YT2095]

trying it with Barium would be a nightmare! it wouldn`t be worth even trying, Sr is pain in the ass, Ba is even worse!

[Bonny]

trying it with Barium would be a nightmare! it wouldn`t be worth even trying, Sr is pain in the ass, Ba is even worse!

OK thanks.I'll scratch that idea then... will need to get or learn how to make HNO3 to produce more barium nitrate.

[YT2095]

can you get Muriatic acid massonary cleaner?
AKA HCl Hydrochloric acid.

convert the BaCO3 to BaCl2, then at least it`s Soluble, then you can use it to make Ba(NO3)2 and ammonium chloride.
that`s another way around it