13 replies to this topic

[pyroman247]

Can anyone please tell me what the laws are for using pyros in schools in UK?

We have a premises license
Can do detailed risk assessment (got template from Le Maitre)
Competent person firing the pyros
Plenty of practice with and without cast nearby.

Pyros have been used in this building before but not by me.
Is there anything else we need to do. I have never been fully in charge but have worked with pyros before, just not the legal stuff

Any help appreciated. We just want some small gerbs and silver jets from le maitre

[crystal palace fireworks]

Can anyone please tell me what the laws are for using pyros in schools in UK?

We have a premises license
Can do detailed risk assessment (got template from Le Maitre)
Competent person firing the pyros
Plenty of practice with and without cast nearby.

Pyros have been used in this building before but not by me.
Is there anything else we need to do. I have never been fully in charge but have worked with pyros before, just not the legal stuff

Any help appreciated. We just want some small gerbs and silver jets from le maitre

Contact the Health & Safety Executive, plus your local schools authority & local council for guidence.

[scjb]

You did get quite a number of replies to your topic on the Blue Room...

Blue Room - "Pyro Laws"

Steve

[Arthur Brown]

Well discussed elsewhere.

The physical ability to fire pyro's indoors and close to people ie on stage is only a small part of "being competent"!

The administrative parts, MSER storage, permission from the show director/producer and the venue licence holder are essential.

The Risk assessment for the Millenium fireworks on the Thames was written on two sheets of A4 paper and covered everything, there is NO VALUE in pages of bovine excrement in lieu of a clear concise RA and MS.

There is NO chance of an under18 being considered a "responsible adult" at law if something goes wrong.


Remember also the in the case of and accident and inquiry, " I consulted recognised skilled professionals for advice" is better mitigation than "I asked some people I don't know on the internet".

Remember also that MSER specifically prohibits under 18's being responsible for the storage of pyro and you HAVE to store it to have it for use, so possession while under 18 will land you in deep trouble without having an accident. MSER pt 2 section 7

Added:
Remember that this forum and the Blue-room contain MANY skilled professional pyrotechnicians, You can inspire someone to help you by your attitude, or give them the chance to be summoned as expert witness against you.

Edited by Arthur Brown, 30 September 2007 - 09:27 AM.

[pyroman247]

Arthur brown:

Thanks. When you refer to MS, do you mean MSER or MSDS?? Also, do you know where I can find a template for MSDS and what it should contain. I have a safety data sheet from Le Maitre which is basically MSDS but does not say about chemical properties.

So, Under 18's can't store them or be in charge of storing them but they can do everything else e.g. handle and fire them?? I know this is obviously against manufacturers regulations and we are having a competent over 18 firing and handling them who has worked with stage pyros before.

[Arthur Brown]

RA - Risk assessment

MS - Method Statement - the written statement of the method you will use to do the job, covering all aspects from safe start to safe finish, including precautions against accidents AND action in the event of accident to minimise injury or loss to people and property.

In a theatre situation the chemical aspect of the MSDS is almost irrelevant as you will be using pre made professionally prepared devices so you need to understand what it does more than what it contains.

Any action with any form of explosive MUST be carried out by a competent adult aged 18 or over. That person must be competent in both the theory and practise of pyro and must supervise the actions of any young person (legal defn someone aged 16 or17 ) This means that an adult will be responsible for all aspects of the pyro and young people may only assist under supervision.

[pyroman247]

Thanks so the MS is like a checklist containing what is done before the show, for each effect, loading, fire prevention, etc etc

So if a person under 18 handled and fired pyros under the supervision of a competent person over 18 who was clear with pyros and knew what they were doing, this would be OK. Sorry If I am being a bit dumb, just like to get this clear! The person over 18 will be responsible for everything e.g. signing RA and if anything was to go wrong, they would get the blame.

Just another question for anyone who has used a Le Maitre pyroflash 6/24 controller.

If I have one cable going from channel 1 going to a double pod, then a cable going from that pod to another double pod, so 4 effects in total possible. Say I want to fire one effect from each pod, how is this done because as I understand it, I would hit the red channel 1 button to on, then choose option A and option C at the same time which is not possible. Do I need to use separate channels for each pod to do this?

[scjb]

Problem is, I don't think anyone here (certainly not me) is going to say to you "Yes, that's fine, go ahead". The whole problem with pyro is it is inherently dangerous. We're trying to control fire. The way we justify the use of pyro is by making as damn well sure as we can be that we have covered all the bases. Including the bases that shouldn't have to be covered.

I have no desire to turn this into a Blue-Room witch-hunt, but I will not be comfortable offering advice to someone who has no experience, and who hasn't got the worldly or professional skills to verify what I'm saying. You say you have someone there who is clear with pyro's and knows what they are doing (your words). Therefore, all these questions should go to them, because at the end of the day, it's their house on the line when the big red button is pushed. If they do not have these skills, then no amount of hopeful fishing on an online forum is going to make the show safe.

Sorry if this comes over as aggressive. There are a small number of people in this industry who try to make a day-to-day living at pyro. Every accident, incident or near-miss makes our life immeasurable harder.

[Arthur Brown]

Method statement, whatever the industry, whatever the task, is the complete method, from beginning to end that you will use to do the task. It has side pages for every possible contingency, it has every important number, dimension, timing etc necessary to do the job completely and safely.

The MS is the copy of the virtual simulation that you can use in the real thing.

There is the video of the white shark band nightclub club fire somewhere on the net it is probably the scariest thing I have ever seen. -Just a few pyros for a band ignited the stage material and in the resultant fire panic and crush half the attendees died. By coincidence there was a camera crew in there filming.

If your friend is competent why are you asking people you don't know, and don't know their competence?
If you are underage but skilled how is it that you can't read the manual for a retail firing system?


Sadly in my opinion you and your establishment would be MOST unwise to continue with the project without paid, professional, insured assistance.

If this goes wrong you would risk being sentenced for illegal possession of explosives, after which you have NO possibility to be an approved person to have or use pyro, AND your supervising teacher risks their QTS status losing their job and career (and salary and mortgage and house)

This is where you are heading http://www.cnn.com/2...nightclub.fire/

I've been a fireman and am now an ambulance driver and I do Pyro and fireworks and I cannot watch the whole video without squirming.

[pyroman247]

scjb: I understand, obviously you are not going to say go for it but I was just wondering about the legal side.

Arthur: I have seen that video and I can assure you that if we do do pyros, they will never be that close to anything and IF we do have pyros, then we will all (crew) have to be 110% sure nothing is affecting the pyros or anything bad could happen and ONLY then would the pyrotechnician fire.

I have the manual now, just got it. Easier to ask than to sift through loads of rubbish to find it but this one wasn't too hard!

[BrightStar]

pyroman247, I have been in this situation myself in the past some time ago - essentially knowing all of the necessary steps, having all pragmatic insurance in place, but not feeling that I had the ultimate authority to fire.

Our solution was to work closely with the stage hire company - they sold us the cartridges and provided the pyro equipment (along with much of the lighting). Having fired in dozens of locations and being on site briefly at our venue anyway, they helpfully (and at no extra cost) provided on the spot training and verified our safety assessments, reassuring everyone concerned.

To be honest, I don't know if this was legally sufficient or not, but in common sense terms there was little more we could have done to ensure a safe show.

Edited by BrightStar, 30 September 2007 - 10:50 PM.

[pyroman247]

Bright star:

Thanks this was a reply I was wanting. Yes we have a company (HSL) that we hire lighting and sound equipment off of. They come in occasionally before shows to put up lights we hire etc as we don't have anyone at the moment with insurance to work at heights. They sell Pyro cartridges aswell.

They are actually coming in this Thursday to give us training in Lighting and Sound even though we know what we are doing just to give some extra pointers. I will ask them about Pyro safety. I have read for hours on end about what to do, I have even already done a preliminary pyro risk assesment for our show. I will get them to have a look at our papers and ask for any extra info. Thanks

[Arthur Brown]

It may be an answer you want! But it will not make you an 18 year old or give you real live experience.

[scjb]

If your school is so conservative that it doesn't have cover for working at height, then for pete's sake DOUBLE-CHECK THE PYRO COVER.

Edited by scjb, 01 October 2007 - 06:17 AM.