12 replies to this topic

[MFX]

I've been told by Da Boss that we have some money available to buy a brand new digital firing system We've initially narrowed it down to :-

1)Fire One
2)Pyrodigital (maybe in conjunction with Shellscape's 'matrix' system)
3)Pyromate Digital Nighthawk...

Anyone know of any other contenders we should consider (want to avoid multicore, i.e. greater than 4 wire cable) ? Also we're probably able to get a Fireone to try out, I don't personally know much about the Pyrodigital/Matrix system (The boss saw it at a trade day) and I quite like the look of the nighthawk system but don't know anyone in the UK using one? Anyone here use either Pyrodigital, Matrix or Nighthawk who could let me know what they think (or even better could we come and have a look at it?)

Cheers.
Martin.

[Arthur Brown]

Once you select the top few pro systems it is interface preference and both formal and neighbourly support that can swing a commercial decision. They all work, they are all tried and tested, which do you like? What do your neighbouring pro users have? What do your pro hirers have? What will you do for assistance for the one off bigger show when you wish to hire extra bits?

[pyrotrev]

Check out the Firebywire from MLE too. They can hire out extra modules if you ever need to do a really big show.

Edited by pyrotrev, 06 October 2007 - 10:57 PM.

[MFX]

Check out the Firebywire from MLE too. They can hire out extra modules if you ever need to do a really big show.

Thanks, their website seems to be rather lacking on info Although the fact that the 16 channel field boxes are "completely passive" means they must be using multicore so that's out then.

[Richard H]

Out of interest why are you against multi core cabled systems? I much prefer high quality and reliable cables with high specification connectors as opposed to manky bits of bell wire.

[MFX]

Out of interest why are you against multi core cabled systems? I much prefer high quality and reliable cables with high specification connectors as opposed to manky bits of bell wire.

We don't like "manky bits of Bell wire" either, note I defined "multicore" in the original post as more than 4 cores, 4 chosen as
1) In heavy duty cable, that's the most cores readily available at a reasonable cost.
2) we can easily hire in extra cables from standard Lighting and sound companies.
3) It allows me to sneak the Nighthawk system onto the shortlist .

Our existing system uses High quality 3 core cables with locking "Speakon" connectors so to be able to still use those (even if we have to make up Speakon to XLR adapters) would be a big advantage (We probably have over 2000 meters of cable) We also tend to do shows on unusual sites which often need long cable runs so Multicore becomes, Heavy, costly and is also putting all your eggs in one basket as it were, with smaller cable you can split the site over several cable runs, so if one cable gets "taken out" you don't lose the whole show! (a nice feature of the nighthawk system is it's active splitters that can disconnect a shorted cable from the rest of the system automatically). And regarding High specification connectors, I've been on a site with a different company using 50 Way multicore with Mil spec connectors, and while plugging in the cable, someone managed to bend quite a few of the pins on the plug of the main 150 Meter cable from the firing box to the site Luckily they managed to get a spare cable from another site sent by motorbike otherwise we'd have been breaking out the portfires! You try bending the pins on a speakon or XLR connector

Edited by MFX, 09 October 2007 - 05:13 PM.

[Richard H]

E-Mail Mat at MLE for more details of the FireByWire system, It's a nice bit of kit. Uses XLR for power / data between firing sequencers, and heavy duty 8 core cables to the 16 channel firing modules.

[mlepyro]

Hello - bit late replying as you're probably sorted already... but you may be interested to know: FireByWire does have passive field modules in exactly the same way that FireOne does. The difference is our field modules are slavable. In essence it is a completely digital system, but a passive subframe that you can expand with. Best of both worlds.

It does just about everything FireOne, Pyrodigit, Pyrodigital and Pyromate does combined.

Mat

I've been told by Da Boss that we have some money available to buy a brand new digital firing system We've initially narrowed it down to :-

1)Fire One
2)Pyrodigital (maybe in conjunction with Shellscape's 'matrix' system)
3)Pyromate Digital Nighthawk...

Anyone know of any other contenders we should consider (want to avoid multicore, i.e. greater than 4 wire cable) ? Also we're probably able to get a Fireone to try out, I don't personally know much about the Pyrodigital/Matrix system (The boss saw it at a trade day) and I quite like the look of the nighthawk system but don't know anyone in the UK using one? Anyone here use either Pyrodigital, Matrix or Nighthawk who could let me know what they think (or even better could we come and have a look at it?)

Cheers.
Martin.

Edited by mlepyro, 24 October 2007 - 04:20 PM.

[MFX]

Hello - bit late replying as you're probably sorted already... but you may be interested to know: FireByWire does have passive field modules in exactly the same way that FireOne does. The difference is our field modules are slavable. In essence it is a completely digital system, but a passive subframe that you can expand with. Best of both worlds.

It does just about everything FireOne, Pyrodigit, Pyrodigital and Pyromate does combined.

Mat

Thanks, not sorted yet, bit busy at the moment for some reason I'm drawing up a pro's and cons list for each system (haven't got very far, so far your main pro point is that you're UK based, units housed in pelicases but the cons are that you use those horrible "speaker" connectors rather than something more robust like pyroclips), also we require a manual (non-pc based) interface to the firing system as well as a PC interface. So far only the nighthawk, firelite (but not fireone) and pyrodigital seem to offer that. as da boss said today "none of the systems does everything I want but I'll have to accept that" so we've got to decide what's most important to us, but obviously we're not going to be able to make a decision till after Nov 5th. I may well post the Pro's and Con's list here once it's done for comment. Would you have any units available for loan/test by any chance?

Have a good and safe Nov 5th BTW

P.S. the link to your firebywire site from the mle site is broken, I need to delete the "/index.php" bit to get it to work. and it would be nice to have a bit more info on the site.

[Arthur Brown]

Every link on that flybywire site is broken

[mlepyro]

Hiya

Thanks for the reply.

Connectors are something we have considered in great detail even to the point of putting them in acidic solutions for a while. Like you say we're uk based and quite flexible - We offer our systems with pyroclips / micropyroclips / speaker connectors and the more reliable german push connectors (which we use on our trigger inputs). Stainless steel "speaker" connectors offer great reliability at a reduced cost. If you are concerned about connectors, then give some thought to the "centronics" connectors pyromate/fireone use. Not trying to slag systems off just offering advice.

The most significant advantage of our system against any of the others, is that our units are all stand alone - programmable and also interfacable in a multiple system environment for remote control. In simple terms, if you have 5 digital modules, you can fire 5 shows on one night, or a big show the next day using all 5. You don't need 5 firelite panels, or pyrodigital controllers.

Lots of pro's including the software. The largest firework company in China fell in love with our software, previously using pyrodigit and pyrodigital.

A demo / use of a unit can be arranged!, but not till after November I'm afraid... all loan units are out.

Thanks

Mat

Have a safe Nov 5th as well.

Thanks, not sorted yet, bit busy at the moment for some reason I'm drawing up a pro's and cons list for each system (haven't got very far, so far your main pro point is that you're UK based, units housed in pelicases but the cons are that you use those horrible "speaker" connectors rather than something more robust like pyroclips), also we require a manual (non-pc based) interface to the firing system as well as a PC interface. So far only the nighthawk, firelite (but not fireone) and pyrodigital seem to offer that. as da boss said today "none of the systems does everything I want but I'll have to accept that" so we've got to decide what's most important to us, but obviously we're not going to be able to make a decision till after Nov 5th. I may well post the Pro's and Con's list here once it's done for comment. Would you have any units available for loan/test by any chance?

Have a good and safe Nov 5th BTW

P.S. the link to your firebywire site from the mle site is broken, I need to delete the "/index.php" bit to get it to work. and it would be nice to have a bit more info on the site.

[MFX]

Connectors are something we have considered in great detail even to the point of putting them in acidic solutions for a while. Like you say we're uk based and quite flexible - We offer our systems with pyroclips / micropyroclips / speaker connectors and the more reliable german push connectors (which we use on our trigger inputs). Stainless steel "speaker" connectors offer great reliability at a reduced cost.

It's not so much the metal part of the connector (although I'm surprised that anyone is making speaker type connectors with stainless as it would have a relativly high contact resistance compared to other contact options and most applications wouldn't need stainless, plus at some point they'd have to connect the stainless bit to something solderable) but the plastic. We've found that the plastic on the speaker type connector first gets attacked by UV in daylight which weakens it and then (particularly in cold conditions) it just cracks and breaks Are you saying that you can offer pyroclips as an alternative?

If you are concerned about connectors, then give some thought to the "centronics" connectors pyromate/fireone use. Not trying to slag systems off just offering advice.

AIUI the digital nighthawk uses 4 pin XLR, the centronics connector is a "legacy" thing to allow use of older analogue modules. Also with fireone the "slats" are available as an all in one setup that doesn't use centronics type connectors.

The most significant advantage of our system against any of the others, is that our units are all stand alone - programmable and also interfacable in a multiple system environment for remote control. In simple terms, if you have 5 digital modules, you can fire 5 shows on one night, or a big show the next day using all 5. You don't need 5 firelite panels, or pyrodigital controllers.

I must admit that's quite interesting, one thing about our shows though is that they can be quite "organic" e.g. firing can depend on what human performers are doing and timing can be variable, but for other parts of the show we require the speed and precion of automatic firing, so mixing auto and manual easily would be a nice feature (we've borrowed a pyrocontrol desk in the past which allows this to some extent but the programming is very basic), also we have a big distrust of relying on a PC to control everything so a manual firing (i.e proper switches to push on a waterproofed reliable box) option for when the PC crashes (or gets inadvertantly soaked in seawater!) would be nice, can your system provide that?

Lots of pro's including the software. The largest firework company in China fell in love with our software, previously using pyrodigit and pyrodigital.

a demo version of the software would be nice to see.

A demo / use of a unit can be arranged!, but not till after November I'm afraid... all loan units are out.

I assumed that would be the case after November would be fine.


Oh sorry one last question, is there any practical distance limit on your system if using cables, and do you have a wireless interface? (we don't like wireless but on occasion it can't easily be avoided) mind you if you're using RS485 then we already have some wireless modems that could cope with that.

[mlepyro]

Hiya

Thanks for the reply. We have our connectors manufactured for us, and have never had problems with the plastic. In terms of stainless, yes the contact resistance is an issue in the audio world, but far less significant for pyro. I'm told stainless can be soldered to with the correct solder. Gold plating is another option that is available.

Pyroclips can be used in a system order, we are very flexible and produce probably as many bespoke systems as normal ones. Manual push button systems through to digitally controlled solutions, bespoke radio has also been done in the past for clients.

In terms of distrusting a PC, and wanting push buttons... with a digital control box - you're only moving a program from a PC to a microprocessor and in my experience the PC is probably just as reliable - a completely manual backup is something our first linux computerised system had - where multicore ran out to the fireworks and was digitally controlled unless you pushed buttons. Nice backup - but not lite.

The current distance is around 1200 metres, but repeaters or radio can be used to extend this. As you mentioned our systems work around RS485 - as do most.

Thanks

Mat

It's not so much the metal part of the connector (although I'm surprised that anyone is making speaker type connectors with stainless as it would have a relativly high contact resistance compared to other contact options and most applications wouldn't need stainless, plus at some point they'd have to connect the stainless bit to something solderable) but the plastic. We've found that the plastic on the speaker type connector first gets attacked by UV in daylight which weakens it and then (particularly in cold conditions) it just cracks and breaks Are you saying that you can offer pyroclips as an alternative?
AIUI the digital nighthawk uses 4 pin XLR, the centronics connector is a "legacy" thing to allow use of older analogue modules. Also with fireone the "slats" are available as an all in one setup that doesn't use centronics type connectors.
I must admit that's quite interesting, one thing about our shows though is that they can be quite "organic" e.g. firing can depend on what human performers are doing and timing can be variable, but for other parts of the show we require the speed and precion of automatic firing, so mixing auto and manual easily would be a nice feature (we've borrowed a pyrocontrol desk in the past which allows this to some extent but the programming is very basic), also we have a big distrust of relying on a PC to control everything so a manual firing (i.e proper switches to push on a waterproofed reliable box) option for when the PC crashes (or gets inadvertantly soaked in seawater!) would be nice, can your system provide that?
a demo version of the software would be nice to see.
I assumed that would be the case after November would be fine.
Oh sorry one last question, is there any practical distance limit on your system if using cables, and do you have a wireless interface? (we don't like wireless but on occasion it can't easily be avoided) mind you if you're using RS485 then we already have some wireless modems that could cope with that.