54 replies to this topic

[receive]

Hey. I'll quote this from my introductory post:

What has stopped me from buying some KNO3 (from GD, etc) is news stories of arrests for possesion of this chemical, as well as the thread on here about people getting visits from The Man after buying online. I have no doubt that anyone making a purchase of these chemicals is either routinely kept on a list somewhere, or at least can be found should the authorities wish to - wherever you buy from.
I'd much rather buy in real life and so will have to find more garden centers to try. Until then, unfortunately, I will just have to hope that my interest stays alive long enough in the absence of practical opportunities.

I'm sure others feel the same way. Does any amateur (no fireworks business, no licenses..) here not buy online?

Thanks

--Joe

[Asteroid]

Most of the stories you will have heard relate to people buying from a site called kno3.com and its affiliates, it was supplying precursor chemicals to drugs and so, was (unsuprisingly) shut down. In doing so the police visited most, if not all of the people who had bought from there. I know of no-one who was using the chemicals for pyro who was arrested in connection with it. I certainly have not heard of anyone having a visit from the police for the possesion of kno3 alone.
Even if they do visit you, you have nothing to fear, since it is not illegal. You are allowed to make and use up to 100g of composition legally so long as you do not store it, and even if you have a little more and maybe are storing it, so long as you are compliant with the police and are of good intentions, it is unlikely that they will take any action.
I have bought large amounts of kno3, and other chemicals from gardendirect on several ocassions, and I have not been visited at all. I forget the fine details, but because of the data protection act, the company cannot surrender your details to the police unless they have a warrant.
Kno3 is one of the few chemicals which can still be sourced locally, but it will save you much time and money to buy online. Good luck!

[receive]

Thanks for the reply. Hmm, I'll have to weigh it up, I guess. Its just that I am not... optimistic, about the political future here, and would consider it a risk to be a known consumer of any chemicals like KNO3, if not today then potentially in the near future.
I'll add that importantly I am white British, with no particular religious affiliations. That kind of thing would go a long way in protecting me these days, I believe.

[RangerOfFire]

There isnt anything wrong with having small amounts of anything.

KNO3 - less than a couple of kilos for fertilising your garden
Aluminium powder - cast model making
Sulphur - garden again
Charcoal - drawing, barbeques
Boric acid - medical uses, cocroach killer
lumps of metal - nothing wrong with that

The problem comes when you have large quantities of certain fertilisers and try to hide that fact. Since you're white, british and not a religious numpty you should be fine as long as you only get what you need and dont become greedy.

[Andrew]

On a legal point, look at the legal and legislation section on the forum.

Just to clear up, there are quite a few on-line shops you can buy from without having to worry about an unwarranted intrusion into your privacy.

Some key tips are to look for suppliers that are legally trading. Here's a list a things to look out for when assessing a company on-line. If they break the law they are more likely to hand your details over to a third party, i.e. the police.

1. Make sure they label their products according to CHIP regulations.

This is to protect your safety as well. Incorrect labels are very dangerous and can lead to a lay person really hurting themselves. If a supplier says "we ship all chemicals with an MSDS" they do not know the regulations in place and are breaking the law. It is illegal to supply hazardous materials/products to the public without a FULL RETAIL LABEL, sending an SDS in place of a proper retail label is illegal.

2. Make sure they are reputable.

Ask around people that have purchased from them before. Find out what the company is like when communicating with their customers. If they are rude, ignorant, arrogant or generally a little suss tread cautiously.

3. Make sure they ship their products in-line with the Carriage of Dangerous Goods by Road Act.

This is the legislation that covers the shipping of hazardous goods in the UK. If your order goes cross border within the EU the ADR is the governing legislation. Any company that ships hazardous goods by Royal Mail is to be avoided at ALL COSTS. They are breaking the law and are putting you in a legal sticking point. You will be facilitating the carriage of dangerous goods by road in an untoward fashion, you can be prosecuted for this if it is proved that you knowingly ordered the goods in the knowledge that it was to be shipped illegally.

4. Make sure they are DPA registered (or in the case of a non-limited company, adhere to the DPA).

This will demonstrate that the company knows the bounds of what they can and cannot do when it comes to releasing information to third parties, i.e. the police.

5. Make sure they employ or have employed a DGSA to ensure they adhere to the law.

This is a legal requirement and if the company does not do it, they are definitely not a legally trading company.

If you keep these in mind you can't go too far wrong. Bear in mind that almost ALL eBay sellers either knowingly or ignorantly break at least three of laws mentioned above. Always buy with extreme care when on eBay.

Also if your unsure, email the company and ask them out straight...
" What is your policy with regards to current shipping and packaging legislation? What is your DPA policy? and do you employ a DGSA?"
If they do not provide a full and satisfactory answer do not buy from them, it's that simple.

Edited by Andrew, 22 October 2007 - 01:33 PM.

[receive]

Thanks for the replies, dudes. Hmm, its a tough one. Unfortunately, though - I don't see "the police" and "laws" as many people do. What I see is a large group of people, with more physical force than myself, who would readily exert that force if they came into knowledge of any kind of pyro-related activities being carried out (as well as many other thoughts/activities).

As we all know, the police are individual people and I think they behave as such, not as law-bound robots. Also my experience with cops I've met has given me a very unpleasant impression of the kind of people who choose that job.
If I'm found with "potassium nitrate" and one of the cops thinks "shit, i've heard of that before..." Then there's no doubt I'd be arrested, my DNA taken and kept, computer seized.. etc. Whether I am finally charged or not, it still is a rather undesirable situation. And my perception of the current state of policing and politics makes me almost certain that if I got chemicals etc and didn't get a visit then its only by luck that no police decided come round and have a look - not because they didn't know or weren't interested.

:/

Edited by receive, 23 October 2007 - 10:39 AM.

[YT2095]

I`m quite surprised at this, I`ve found the complete Opposite to be true with the Police that I have contact with, they`re not at all as you describe!
ok granted, I don`t have Kilos of anything (well nothing dangerous or even Potentially dangerous), but I do have a wide variety of chems (several 100) and yes some are without doubt insanely toxic. And I`ve had these for many many years now.

the Police, like any other establisment or group (incl the public in general) are no different to any other, there will always be Good and Bad, that`s the nature of Humanity.

the only difference is that if there`s a Bad cop, it reflects badly on all of them and it becomes wide-spread news etc...

but I think it`s unfair to make sweeping statements like that!

lets flip the coin for a second, Why do you think Pyro has a bad name, and strikes "Fear" in Joe Q Public at the mere mention of such things?
are we ALL bad????

of course not!

[W.P]

You must realise half the time the instigator behind these raids is the GCHQ, NOT the police, the police teams breaking down your door are just "doing their job".

EDIT: Typo.

Edited by W.P, 23 October 2007 - 11:38 AM.

[YT2095]

and they only break down your door if you`re not at home (they will knock and wait for quite a bit 1`st) OR they`ve been watching you and have cause to think you are Armed or dangerous etc...

I got my door smashed in once, it was a "Drugs and related Items" warrant, we were not at home at the time, but they stood there a good 10 mins knocking before they smashed it open!

and no, there was nothing to find, I got reported because I lived in a High-Rise and was often seen carrying trays of seedlings in and out the block, I grow veg on my allotment.
so some "Public minded idiot" thought it was drugs and reported me

oh yeah, and after doing a complete search and finding nothing, that was it, and Yes they had been through my chemicals

I`m no danger to the public and they were quite happy with that.

[receive]

the Police, like any other establisment or group (incl the public in general) are no different to any other, there will always be Good and Bad, that`s the nature of Humanity.

While the police include good and bad people, like other groups, they're not "no different to any other [group]". Every group, depending on its function, will include a certain range of people with a certain probability of there being members of any particular type. I think in the case of the police the average personality is shifted towards the "bad" side of the scale. Whatever "bad" means, hah.
Cops I've dealt with seem always to be an aggressive kind of person, looking to intimidate when possible - and very quick to anger. I am not joking when I say I'd advise people to never look a cop in the eye when passing. Its a shame I see it this way but I've had no experiences to make me think otherwise. If I was lost or needed help somewhere, and I saw a cop - I'd feel safer hiding from him than going up to him.

but I think it`s unfair to make sweeping statements like that!

sweeping statements like what? See above; I don't think all cops are bad, just that as a group when averaged they certainly are on that side of the scale.

You must realise half the time the instigator behind these raids is the GCHQ, NOT the police, the police teams breaking down your door are just "doing their job".

Yea I realise that - I should probably say "The Man" and not just "police".

Edited by receive, 23 October 2007 - 12:44 PM.

[redcone]

Hi Receive,

If you feel that paranoid about buying chemicals then perhaps this isn't the hobby for you?

Regards,
Simon.

[W.P]

If everyone here didn't feel paranoid at some point about buying chemicals then we are not human, for example if everyone decided to buy from the formerly known kno3.com then we'd be cashing out on door frame repairs.

[YT2095]

actually I DID buy from them, red Phos and Iodine as well as other things all in one order.

I had absolutely ZERO clue or idea that these were used in making drugs at the time, it wasn`t until I told my mate that I`de ordered some new chems for my element collection that he said "WHAT!!!!! are you mental!?". I was like Huh? what`s the big deal??? and then he explained.....

so I know that I`m probably in line for an inspection at some time, but that`s cool too (as long as I`m at home and it`s a reasonable hour and not Dinner time or Sleep time).

I think the reason, I`ve not been raided is that I simply just don`t do anything "raid worthy", and I`m fine with that too

[W.P]

I was actually going to buy from them, when I finally decided to make a purchase for some safety fuse and KNO3 the site shut down- lucky me.

[Gazza]

I have no reservations or fears about buying chems, and why should I- I have nothing to hide. I am not doing anything illegal with the chemicals. I have common-sense, and knowledge of how to handle chemicals safely.
This nanny state, with its draconian EU health and safety legislation and the current heightened state of alarmism and paranoia, is really pi**ing me off!