11 replies to this topic

[GuiltyCol]

If I may be so bold as to make a general comment, it's occurred to me that there's a barrier to entry that's maintained by the experienced members of this forum, which potentially leads to an unsafe working environment for noobs here.

Please bare with me, I promise this is not a rant, but my observation of what is a very understandable culture on this forum, a discussion as to whether it is the most appropriate stance to take, and finally I hope a constructive suggestion for consideration by the esteemed members here.

First off I'd like to say that the world is a better place for this forum being in existence. I know I certainly appreciate the time and effort that the experienced members here put in to making this forum a wealth of knowledge and centre for excellence in the pyro world. Thank you.

About a year ago I was considering starting a hobby in this field but I didn't. I won't bore you with all the details, but one of the factors was the fact that as a noobie I didn't really know what I was doing, and this forum did a good enough job of putting the fear of god in me enough to decide not to. A major part of that was the fear of getting it wrong, buying the wrong chemicals, not knowing enough about contamination or what slight variances were acceptable as oppose to being dangerous, and basically c0cking it up with disastrous consequences.

Again the details are unimportant, but I've decided to give it another go, and have instantly hit the same issues. The first of course being buying the chemicals in the first place. I appreciate greatly the responses more experienced members have made on my other thread, they have been really helpful. However there is an element to many of the posts I've read over the last week that bothers me slightly.

Yes I have spent many hours reading and reading the threads here, and again and again I find comments like "This has already been discussed, use the search." and many more like them. Now I FULLY understand this approach. I've been on the other side of it on other non-pyro forums: noobs come along and they are all asking the same annoying noob questions that have been answered a million times before, why can't they read what was written last week, last month, last year!

The answer of course is simple: there's too much info. The "Buying Chemicals" thread has loads of useful info, but is a monster 60 page thread that in itself takes hours to read, and meanders about vacillating from topic to topic. It's a very unapproachable way to present the information. Then there is of course the very nature of forums, in that people disagree. Someone may say something seemingly authoritatively, only for it to be rebuffed by someone else a few days later. As a noob, it's very hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

This all conspires to make it quite hard for a noob to distil out the good quality information and understand it in a clear an uncompromising way. Let's look specifically at my example, I sourced some fertiliser (potassium nitrate I hoped) and posted the label on the forum, and there was disagreement as to whether using it would make sulphuric acid or not!

I wouldn't consider myself a flitter, I am a Chartered Engineer, I bought Introductory Practical Pyrotechnics (on the advice of this forum last year) and read it cover to cover before doing anything, I've spent hours and hours reading the threads here over the last week. Whilst I don't doubt that in the mind of every experienced denizen of this forum, all the information required to safely start off in this hobby has been covered many times here, as a noob I can tell you that this information is not clear.

Now maybe this approach is deliberate, and I can fully understand the reasoning behind that. If you've spent years learning, researching and mastering a field of endeavour, it's human nature to get annoyed when some noob comes along and wants it all handed to them on a plate. Maybe it's even more complicated than that, a rite of passage perhaps? If someone really wants to progress, they will demonstrate the pre-requisite meticulous tenacity necessary for a successful and safe career, by first sifting through the morass of information on the forum. Either motivation is a perfectly understandable approach.

However, what this means is that noobs are far more likely to buy the wrong chemicals and mix them inappropriately. At best this simply means that the composition won't perform, at worst I could be making sulphuric acid in an explosive mix!

So I have a suggestion: a few of the more experienced members here collaborate to produce the definitive starters guide. Just something simple, making a Black Powder powered rocket for example. Most importantly, the guide should incorporate these key elements:

1) First and foremost, a list of safety equipment and safety instructions!
2) Where to buy which ingredients. Not just "online" or "Gardens Direct" but specific links to actual product pages with quantities.
3) Explanations of products to be avoided (flowers of sulphur for example) and how to spot them, (and why would be nice).
4) A list of common mistakes to avoid, e.g. not using your granite pestle and mortar.
5) A list of common problems overcome, e.g. how to fuse your first rocket.
6) The tutorial thread should be locked to prevent dilution from endless discussion, and only maintained by the mods. Have a separate thread for discussion.

The benefits of this approach are many:

- The tutorial will be a central place to direct many of the noob questions that are frequently asked.
- A peer reviewed tutorial will contain best practice with the necessary safety bias.
- Potentially dangerous noob mistakes will be headed off at the pass.
- Following a structured tutorial will be a useful learning exercise for noobs to decide if this is really for them or not.
- This first project can ensure the practitioner is kept within the law, e.g. the 100g limit.

There are of course downsides, and these must be weighed by those involved:

- Some level of commitment will be required to keep the tutorial up-to-date as products are discontinued, law changes etc.
- There may be liability issues were someone to follow the instructions and it caused an accident. Though by it's nature, this is what should be avoided by the tutorial, and it's not beyond the wit of man to post the proper disclaimers and present it properly.

Anyway, I hope that this awfully long post (sorry) has met with my aims, which were to make an observation and present a constructive and well reasoned suggestion. If nothing else, I am looking forward to reading the discussion this post may generate.

Thanks for taking the time to read it.

[YT2095]

My Opinion is this:

Science is Not about "Instant gratification" it`s about plenty of research and getting it Right, and if part of that involves reading a 60 page thread and taking notes that leaves you with a Single piece of Good and Valuable Data, then you`ve taken the 1`st step as a Scientist!
this applies Doubly so for Pyro as Instant gratification can lead to instant mutilation just as quickly!

if Anything, it teaches Patience!

Kewlz and teeny bomorz hate that word

Research!!!!!



edit: I don`t think Anyone here has ever been told off / shouted at, or shot from a 24" mortar for asking a question that hasn`t been covered, Or asking for clarification of something that Has.

Edited by YT2095, 23 October 2007 - 11:11 AM.

[W.P]

This is interesting however it would also be pointless, there would be so much information it would be impossible to condense into anything more than the "monster threads" as you described them. Making a guide like this is almost like making a guide called "Guide to general knowledge and common sense". There is only so much we can do as individuals and/or as a group to help educate the "Noobies", in some respects actually having a detrimental effect by scaring them off with all the safety information. Rather than making a list of information, I'd rather give a starter a list of resources and tell him to do his own research, compile his own information and learn for himself.

If you ARE new to the forum, then bad luck for you, there certainly is an unwelcoming atmosphere to newbies here but you can only expect that in a place of experience pyrotechnicians. The very nature of pyrotechnics is the reason for this, eliminating this with a single guide is a task that cannot be done. I've once written a small introductory guide on pyrotechnics, during the process several times there would be places where you'd have to explain so much that you'd end up veering off topic, slicing out that completely would mean not filling all the basic gaps- making that guide obsolete.

I propose NOT to make a guide, but a list of resources and information, here is what I've compiled, add to it if you wish, sticky it, make it grow. That is what I believe would help to eliminate this:

Pyrotechnical Resources and Information

This list was composed by UK-SWAT (also known as W.P) as of the 9th of August 2007. As of this date all sites are fully working.

Pyrotechnical sites

These are pyrotechnical sites which I feel that they should be particularly mentioned.

Wouter's Practical Pyrotechnics Page
A good resource for pyrotechnics, this page contains basic details on the most commonly used devices and how to construct them. The friendly layout makes things on this site easy to understand- however the best element of this site is the extensive pyrotechnical database of different compositions. A good site for beginners.

Sky lighter News Articles
Not for the beginner, these are the Skylighter News articles that they publish every now and again- they contain a lot of interesting information of different pyrotechnical subjects and sometimes include projects. My favourite article is Firework Tips 57: How to make Visco fuse rockets.

Krimzon Pyrotechnics
A site which was created by 4 individual amateur pyrotechnicians and compiled together into their own sections. This site contains a lot of useful information on pyrotechnics and unlike traditional pyrotechnics sites it is more "down to earth". Go to the site and you will understand what I mean. The only problem with this site is that it has a few links down.

Jackery Pyro
A decent pyrotechnics site which contains detail about various pyro projects- I especially like this site because the quality of the images and explanations are high. This site also has a unique feature: A composition database with a search feature that also allows you to add your own compositions.

Brian Redmond Pyrotechnics
Quite a down to earth pyrotechnics site, still being worked on but good enough for it to be listed here. I particularly like his simple layout which gives his site a very "rustic" feeling.

Wichita buggy whip
One of my personal favourites and home of the infamous Benzolift guide. I'd recommend this site to amateurs and pros because of the extensive amount of pyro projects coupled with good information. This is an A class site.

Pyroguide
This is the ultimate site for beginners and is a site which I spent most of my infant pyro-years at. It is basically a wiki-pyro database containing articles on basic devices to more complex devices. I'd recommend it to beginners.

Other sites
These aren't spectacular sites but they deserve a mention:

http://budgetpyro.tripod.com/index.htm
http://www.geocities.../mini_bielecki/
http://sh33p.parabol...epages.com/home
http://www.peter-hoa...ojects/pyro.htm
http://petelin.gozdi...l/Main page.htm
http://petelin.gozdi...jakal/index.htm
http://dont-explode.com/dev.html
http://www.freeinfos...irecrackers.pdf
http://www.pyrotechn...op.nl/index.htm (German)
http://www.pyrotubes4europe.com
http://www.infernolabs.co.uk


Pyrotechnical Forums

Forums are good sources of information for pyrotechnics because not only do you understand about various projects you also get to ask questions the the forum members.

Dedicated Pyro forums

UK Pyrosociety (UKPS)
My personal favourite site, this site contains friendly members with a high degree of pyrotechnical knowledge and you can learn a lot of information from this site just by lurking it; this is most likely the most active dedicated pyrotechnical forum. Don't be fooled by the name though, a large portion of the members do not actually recide in the UK.

Amatuer Pyrotechnics and Chemistry
Another popular pyrotechnics forum. Unlike UKPS I do not visit this site too often, but from what I have heard it is similar in many ways- one way being that half the members shared by each forum. Good place to visit.

PyroForum.nl
This is quite an inactive forum but still worth visiting. They have a small section in English which is linked to above.

Edited by W.P, 23 October 2007 - 11:34 AM.

[BrightStar]

Research!!!!!

Indeed. The endless research and the mistakes along the way are essential in learning to make fireworks.

I suppose an analogy here is cookery. Have you ever seen a complete beginner pick up a cookery book and produce a really good dinner? No way. The chef has to have some familiarity with the food and know how the ingredients come together to cope with the variables inherent in the process. Made by the book, my first lasagne took 10 hours and turned purple!

With fireworks the variables are much more tricky. Your chems will vary in purity and reactivity, particle sizes, moisture content etc. according to where you find them. Tooling and components - paper, tubes, casings are all different. The methods of working with them are more of an art than a science. This inherent variation and the skills needed absolutely necessitate research and experimentation.

Most of my unsuccessful experiments have been frustrating, a few have been embarrassing and one or two with hindsight have been risky. This is where a 'beginners' guide' certainly could be useful - not in providing a spoon-fed manual to bypass the necessary R & D or avoid inevitable disappointments, but in steering beginners away from the common hazardous mistakes.

My one beginners tip? Start with much smaller quantities than you think you need. Only 2-3g of good BP will lift a 30mm comet with a hell of a bang...

Edited by BrightStar, 23 October 2007 - 09:19 PM.

[marble]

Read the long 60+ page threads, sure it may take some time but its always worth it. The whole fertilizer is stupid, none knows what the any of the numbers mean. When I see something that lists it as being 5% sulfur trioxide I assume that it is but according to some it is not. Personally I wouldn't touch that fertilizer with a 10ft pole.

[pyrotrev]

I don't think there's any deliberate policy to exclude information from newbies on this forum: if there were, Richard H. and the other admins/mods would not have put many hundreds, if not thousands of hours of work into the UKPS when they could have set up a nice little private forum and restricted it to experienced pyros. The difficulties that are faced by the admin team and the more experienced members I'm sure, is that there is a a) a certain number of people out there (and GuiltyCol is obviously NOT one of these - full marks for backing off when you weren't sure what you were doing ) who do not exercise sufficient responsibility in regard to their own or other people's safety and the experienced members have only a limited amount of time to spend on the UKPS and this forum, pretty well all having demanding full time jobs (I have 2 ). The first problem means that any advice has to err on the side of extreme caution, otherwise someone could get hurt, with moral if not legal responsibility on the part of the member giving the advice: remember pretty well all pyrotechnics is POTENTIALLY VERY DANGEROUS if not done properly. The time factor is probably the main reason for the advice "use the search facility", I don't see any genuinely new and interesting questions being brushed off, it's just a matter of trying to use what little time you have at your disposal most effectively.
The idea of a basic guide is a good one, I'm sure the UKPS admin will consider it (though the legal ramifications in this Nanny state could be interesting) when time and finances permit, until then it will require some patience to do the necessary research on the forum as is.

[GuiltyCol]

Thank you all for the well reasoned replies. I'm not going to debate this, as my intention was not to argue, I do just want to clarify a few points on the off chance I may have been misunderstood:

> YT2095: Science is Not about "Instant gratification"

Agreed, I made a point of saying that that is a perfectly understandable approach.

> YT2095: I don`t think Anyone here has ever been told off / shouted at, or shot from a 24" mortar for asking a question that hasn`t been covered

It's exactly that helpful attitude that makes this forum one of the better pyro resources on the net.

> W.P: there would be so much information it would be impossible to condense into anything more than the "monster threads" as you described them.

That's an interesting point. There would be a fine line between being succinct and reckless brevity.

> W.P: there certainly is an unwelcoming atmosphere to newbies here

I'm not actually sure I agree with that, I've been to forums that are a lot more hostile to noobies than here. I've generally been of the opinion that providing people are prepared to put the work in and ask sensible questions, they have been readily accepted here. Take my post for example, ok I registered a couple of years ago now (has it really been 2 years!) though would still consider myself "new", I wouldn't have been surprised at receiving a fair amount of invective in the replies, but I haven't. So far everyone has been extremely considerate. Thanks for the resource list btw.

BrightStar: I suppose an analogy here is cookery. Have you ever seen a complete beginner pick up a cookery book and produce a really good dinner?

True, though I hoped the tutorial I was proposing would be the cookery equivalent of "How To Boil An Egg" i.e. the simplest possible task that was the foundation for everything else.

pyrotrev: I don't think there's any deliberate policy to exclude information from newbies on this forum

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that's what I thought, it isn't and I don't believe there is such a policy.


Thanks again to all for the excellent responses.

[Asteroid]

I have to agree with marble, it seems like a lot of effort, but reading through those long postswith lots of information in them is well worth it, after all, theyu do have lots of information in them. When it comes for the time for you to buy chemicals, read that thread, when you want to make a cylindrical shell, read that one etc. Often if members can't quite agree on something there's a fairly common reason - we're only human! While the forum together may know looooaads, we don't know everything, especially when we drift away from pyro and into agriculture (or cookery) Start with the basics and work your way up, you'll enjoy it and end up with plenty of experience.

[Arthur Brown]

Pyro is a fusion of science art opinion and history! And probably other things too. Pyro has a legislative framework which is location sensitive (depends where you live).

The big problem with pyro is that a mistake can cost you dearly. There are too many examples of lost fingers, hands etc. due to unwise use of pyro, there are also people who have got into legal trouble, or had to move house after disturbing the neighbours too often.

Look at a firework show, see which effects you like most then ask about them.

Pick some really simple beginner projects and progress from there.

Remember also that pyro is NOT a cheap hobby and you have to spend lots of TIME researching the ingredients, and sourcing them. The tools you will need also have to be sourced and bought, some are more specialist than others.

Also be thankfull that you are learning an arcane art from practitioners once you show progress the someone else will assist you on the next step.

NO_ONE can give you all the skill and experience instantly,even the major players quote other authors and chemists. Lancaster cites Shimizu, Davis cites Clarke, several people use Bleser formulas and Weingart and and.......

You will slowly grow in competence and standing. Study the chemistry study the mechanics, study the art, see which you prefer.

Here is a massive www reference "http://www.pyropage....GeneralSources" Look down the site and follow "The Pyrotechnic Formulary Page (PFP)" and look at the "Consequences" link.
Just think Why should someone have to try to find all the bits of you if you were not careful.

[Andrew]

Arthur Brown links to a very graphic web site. Although it fills me with sorrow this page serves as warning to all those who ignorantly steam forwards into Pyro. Although one or two were accidents of no fault of the injured party, the rest show evolution in action.

GuiltyCol its not as controversial as you think, you should look at the NCFS web site, (a real bunch of ignorants knobs! [that's kind of tarring them all with the same brush mind]).


We all have to bear in mind that there is one really big issue that everyone seems to forget or just not know. The forum admin are opposed to actively supporting commercial activity. Fair play, but it could be seen as a possible way to improve safety by having an APC style company listing part of the forum. This without actively supporting commercial businesses would provide a bunch of links to "Safe" suppliers.

The other issue is that many suppliers are kept secret for a number of reasons, like the supplier does not want 50 kids turning up for example; it's common etiquette to not disclose a supplier if they do not want you to. However the APC style part to the forum would not have to contain this information at all, if it does crop up because another forum member found them, the thread can be removed to preserve the good relationship that already exists.



On a guide note, yes it's a good idea, but again there are issues. Like what to actually put into it? A sticky, closed thread that contained a link to a good noob tutorial would be of great use. Both these issue really need to be raised with the UKPS guys!

I bought Introductory Practical Pyrotechnics (on the advice of this forum last year) and read it cover to cover before doing anything,

If only everyone did that!

[GuiltyCol]

I have to agree with marble, it seems like a lot of effort, but reading through those long postswith lots of information in them is well worth it

I'm glad then that we all agree with each other then. Just to be clear, I never said that it wasn't worth reading it, it most definitely is. I was simply making the point that some wouldn't (or couldn't cope with it), and perhaps vital safety critical information could be presented in a more succinct way.

NO_ONE can give you all the skill and experience instantly

If you have the impression that that's what I was after, then you badly misunderstood my post. I hoped I'd been quite clear about how careful and slow I have been taking things, indeed it's taken me nearly 2 years since joining this forum to actual start making my first batch of BP!

A sticky, closed thread that contained a link to a good noob tutorial would be of great use.

Nice way to reduce my entire starting post down to a single sentence!

[Arthur Brown]

A simple list of helpful suppliers would soon go out of date. One would be too helpful and cease selling, and another would open without clients!

Read lots of formulae, then determine what you need in therms of chemicals, ( some will be esoteric some mundane ) Then look at the form each ingredient should be to perform. I've seen formulae with charcoal on three different forms/meshes and some with charcoal and lampblack -two sorts of carbon but necessarily so for a device to function.

The whole aim of the UKPS is to raise the image and profile of legitimate amateur firework manufacture and open hobby pyro as a legit reason for possession of pyro and chemicals.