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Insanity Or Stupidty?


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#16 Andrew

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 06:17 PM

W.P. don't read this, you'll just spoil it if this ends up at your school next year.

Andrew, are they really making candles? Live? On school premesis or elsewhere? How the hell did that one get by H&S? I'm impressed!


The important things here are that, a. they think they are [lmfao :rolleyes: ] (this heightens interest and enthusiasm to learn) and b. they are learning, appreciating and most of all, getting hands on experience of all the basic scientific principles behind it all.

They make dud compositions and devices, while a technician/expert makes the real compositions and devices behind the scenes (well in advance of course).

e.g.

WEEK 1 The pupils make BP with a mortar and pestle but the cleaver thing is that the Nitrate is replaced with everyday table salt; cheap and safe. The three different compositions the students make with Sodium Chloride, are mirrored with real ones that are switched over as the demos at the end of the session are set up. Here they learn the importance of correct stoichiometry. They also experience (this one was a bonus that no one anticipated) of the different mechanisms for heat transfer; as their faces feel the radiated heat from the tests.

WEEK 2 Demo of a BP puck burning (takes about 3 seconds). Followed by pupils smashing up dud pucks and grading the grains with test sieves. The fractions are laid in lines and burn rates tests are demoed (obviously the dud grain is replaces as setting up). Here the pupils learn (well actually see definitively) that greater surface area = faster reaction rates.

WEEK 3 The pupils do flame colour tests using a Bunsen burner and different salts. They also see the effects of chlorine donors; intensifying colours. Here they select the suitable materials for the colours of stars they want. Also they put spatulas of fine charcoal needles and aluminium powders into the flame and sprinkle. They observe the effects. The get given the choice of ordering the colour and effect stars in their own candle. This demonstrates spectra, although they will not learn of it until least GCSE and in most cases A-Level. And obviously they don't get to choose green!!!

EDIT --> By substituting in inert chemicals to render the compositions useless, it eliminates the risk of "Little Sh*ts" nicking it and then hurting themselves.

So on and so on.

They also get to observe the different properties of different materials, like the plasticy cascading fluid nature of Parlon powder. They get taught good lab practice throughout


The whole thing is very well thought out to maximise the pupils exposure and learning potential. Legally and insurance wise it is very simple, it is all covered by the insurance of the school. As the expert on hand or technician actually plays with the dangerous chemicals, the risk assessment for the children is very straight forward. the easier risk assessments for the adults covers the manufacture. Finally on the legal standpoint, no lawyer in the land can argue that this is not "manufacture for laboratory analysis and demonstration". Even got it checked through the LEA legal advisory team.

This "trial" will conclude next week, after that I'm meeting up with some government, and government funded bodies that are heavily involved with shaping the skills demographic of the population. Hopefully a set of experiments (RCs, fountains, rockets for older pupils etc.) instructions will wind their way into schools around the country for autumn term science club ideas. With any luck, some form of liaison will be set up with perhaps the UKPS and this could act as a portal for expertise and expert advisers to schools. I haven't raised this yet as it is no where near that stage yet. There may also have to be some commercial support to source awkward chemicals, but that is also under consideration.

Edited by Andrew, 01 November 2007 - 06:21 PM.


#17 pyrotrev

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 07:17 PM

Well done Andrew and Andrew's friend!

there was a loud "thud" noise accompanied with a bright flash and a cloud of black smoke

Sounds like either he's got the stoichiometry wrong or used old/rather coarse Mg powder. Copper thermite normally produces a nice pink smoke :P

Edited by pyrotrev, 01 November 2007 - 07:22 PM.

Trying to do something very beautiful but very dangerous very safely....

#18 W.P

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 07:34 PM

W.P. don't read this, you'll just spoil it if this ends up at your school next year.


Didn't.

Can you outline it for me?

#19 Andrew

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 07:41 PM

Didn't.

Can you outline it for me?


I'm working with a local school to develop interesting topics for science clubs.

Next year it may end up in a lot of schools. The trial is making Roman candles. The question was do the pupils work on LIVE fireworks? The basic answer is no, but don't tell anyone that! To all intents and purposes pupils work with LIVE compositions but with key ingredients substituted with inert chemicals of identical physical properties. Given that you now know the secret to keeping HSE paperwork down you may as well read it all. Have fun

#20 Asteroid

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 07:55 PM

Sounds like a fantastic idea, it really is exactly what we should be doing more of and is still within our power with all the HSE stuff. Perhaps I am misunderstanding it, but if 60 kids have signed up, and each of them thinks they are making a roman candle, what happens at the end when they want to test them. Order some in?

Edited by Asteroid, 01 November 2007 - 08:02 PM.


#21 Arthur Brown

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 07:59 PM

When you can hide a surprise party from your mum, then you can try to hold secrets like this from 60 pairs of eyes.
http://www.movember.com/uk/home/

Keep mannequins and watermelons away from fireworks..they always get hurt..

#22 W.P

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 08:11 PM

you'll just spoil it if this ends up at your school next year


I doubt it would end up in my school. Even if it did then eventually it would be exposed, things like this have a way of getting out. For example, what if one of those "L**** S***" decides to deliberately put in no stars and fill the entire tube with black powder then plug it, it of course should explode but when it somehow still lifts stars then what?

#23 Andrew

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 09:07 PM

I doubt it would end up in my school. Even if it did then eventually it would be exposed, things like this have a way of getting out. For example, what if one of those "L**** S***" decides to deliberately put in no stars and fill the entire tube with black powder then plug it, it of course should explode but when it somehow still lifts stars then what?


All devices are assembled by a trained person with the pupils deciding what goes in; thought of that one already! Do you think we'd allow pupils to make devices themselves?? (The extent of insurance and risk assessment would actually not rule out LIVE devices being assembled in front of the pupils in small groups).

It's all been thought out by people who were kids once before and know the tricks (hell I ran round school collecting Aluminium turnings from lathes and Rust from steel bars in storage, I even used to think up really complicated questions to ask the chemistry teacher so that she'd have to retire to read up the answer, mean while I made a paper water b**b and loaded it with magnesium turnings from the demo that was set up, I know the ways round the system!); although if there are any more you can think of, your suggestions on ways in which you'd try and test the system are more than welcomed.

#24 W.P

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 09:23 PM

Well I can't really say, what others are impressed by and what I'm impressed by are completely different considering that I've read and learnt a lot more to do with pyrotechnics than what the average person would.

Rather than handling Roman Candles, what are the laws on using Estes rocket engines and other rockets?

#25 Andrew

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 09:26 PM

what are the laws on using Estes rocket engines and other rockets?


What in a school?

#26 MDH

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 11:05 PM

I think your teacher is just a tad eccentric, that's all.

#27 W.P

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 05:41 AM

What in a school?


Well, launching them on a school premises. Some amateur rocketry (which doesn't involve actually making fireworks thus should have less restrictions) on an open field would be good.

#28 Andrew

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 01:19 PM

Well, launching them on a school premises. Some amateur rocketry (which doesn't involve actually making fireworks thus should have less restrictions) on an open field would be good.


First off the risk assessments will be far more simple and as you'd be using commercial kit it would be ultra simple to use school grounds as a launch site.

My advide here is become a member of teh UKRA as you'll then be insured to fly rockets, do a couple of qualifications as weel and thsi will give a much better chance of it actually happening.




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