15 replies to this topic

[ukpyros]

Hi all and welcome to my first post. .

I am sorry if i have put this topic in the wrong place please feel free to move it.

Ok on to my question.

Can anyone tell me what is in a lemaitre flame projector (the powder) and can it be brought from anyone but Lemaitre?
Also the same question for the green flame projector.

Many thanks.

UKPYROS.

[Arthur Brown]

Finding a replacement for a commercial device composition may not be easy!

The manufacturers will likely not tell you the ingredients! The crystal and powder forms will be important as well as the compound. The method of manufacture may well be critical.

The testing and certification for stage pyro is partly at least to prove that a production run of a device will be consistent and all devices behave the same, this is important as the safety distances involved may only be a couple of metres and the timing critical to the second or less.

Also for stage work the smoke is critical! Usually NO smoke is best but as singers and performers will be in the smoke there must be no nasties in there.

The method of loading the charge will be important too!

[ukpyros]

Okey dokey

I am not looking to make this powder just to buy it.
But thanks for what you are saying.
The powder is just loose in the tube not compressed at all.
The company i used to work for used to use lemaitre refills wich worked out cheaper than keep buying the tubes.
But i was just wondering if there are other suplyers of this powder.
All the info that i have on it is that it is a vectan powder.
Thanks again.
UKPYROS.

Edited by ukpyros, 19 January 2008 - 02:21 PM.

[spectrum]

Any fast burning proprietary smokeless re-loading powder will do and, depending on the manufacturer - Le Maitre are not the only company supplying this type of device - there are a range of options.

I used to work for LM but cannot remember what they used specifically, prior to this I worked for Astra and did some stuff with Unwins, there they used red dot powder, Hercules brand I seem to recollect. Trial and error will provide a result and at around £15.00 per 500g (which should provide several reloads) you will save a lot of money and appreciate how Le Maitre make theirs!!

I would also say that by simply loading an effect in this way for immediate use but not producing these devices to supply or transport you are not breaking the law.

[ukpyros]

Thats for that dude, that is a great help.
Also thanks about confirming that what i am doing is not ilegal.
So all i need to do is find a supplier, goggle here i come. .

[Arthur Brown]

What you are doing is most likely legal. However doing it becomes uninsurable if it isn't an approved device. Transporting the powder may be OK if it is within its own original UN marked packing case.

[BrightStar]

It might be worth taking apart one of the commercial flame pots first to reverse engineer them (outdoors with full PPE).

Here on the forum we could suggest mixes of smokeless powder with nitrates and carbonates for colour that would probably work, but they would need to be pressed into the cases and cored to control the burn rate. The most recent quote I had for smokeless powder for pyro use was £30 / lb, so it's not cheap.

If you need a brief burst of flame, mixing up a few grams of granulated 'tableau fire' in an open tube should be relatively safe and 'do-able', but the 10 ft long jets of continuous roaring flame really need to be left to commercial manufacturers. As Arthur says, given the insurance position, the Le Maitre pots are good value.

Edited by BrightStar, 20 January 2008 - 11:04 PM.

[Arthur Brown]

Flame powder can easily be 1.3g so there is the storage and transport to consider. Loaded flame projectors are usually 1.4g so less onerous storage and transport conditions.

[Mumbles]

The rules may be different in the UK, but I somehow doubt it. If it's home made, no matter how small or safe or reliable it is, it would still be classified as 1.3g. It is a UN designation, and I believe requires the approval of some testing firm to be granted 1.4g status, and thus the 1.4g storage requirements.

[Arthur Brown]

With very few exceptions, home made would be considered 1.1 until tested otherwise. Commercial supplies of powder can well be packed to comply with 1.3 and prepared devices can likely be packed to comply with 1.4g. There is a benefit to the makers and dealers if they are in the lowest possible category as the transport and storage is easier for maker, distributor and user.

The hazard class which a product can achieve depends on the product and the packaging, BUT a product in the UK will be assumed 1.1 unless there is a competent authority test document to demonstrate a lower category.

Buying the items made and packed to meet 1.4g may cost, BUT the transport and storage requirements for 1.3 cost more! Transporting 1.1 almost always requires ADR transport, which costs hugely more.

The component part approach can be useful but please understand (UK) MSER for the exceptions to allow "Making a Device" for theatrical or cinematic purposes. Even so the ignitor is classified as 1.4 and has to be purchased and transported.

However with stage or movie work, there will be high value people around, injure or disfigure a name or star and you will be talking to your insurers about big money, and they will be saying "we don't insure home made explosives".

[ukpyros]

OK so it is OK for Lemaitre to sell this powder for me to refill the projectors no prob. But not OK for me to buy the same powder somewhere else to use in the same way. What i am doing is RELOADING an effect the exact same way as the manufacture states, I am not making my own effects just looking for other suppliers of the product for less cost.

[Arthur Brown]

The powder in a device may well be supplied as a 1.4 device. - easy enough to transport and store and use!

The powder ir a bulk package may likely be a 1.3 product in it's trade package, - bit more challenging to transport store and use (insured)

A DIY powder would be classed as 1.1 until tested so much more difficult to use and insure.

[icarus]

i havent tried this myself skylighter fireworks newsletter feb 3rd 2001 issue 14 coloured flame projecters
green flame 10g barium nitrate 100g smokeless powder
red flame 7g strontium nitrate 100g smokeless powder

[Arthur Brown]

And smokeless powder is definitely 1.1 and will require licensed storage and a personal COER approval.

The challenge you face is not getting a flame powder BUT getting a whole recharging system that is 1,4g or 1,3

It's like mines: Mines supplied in a tube ready to fire can easily be 1.4 so can be transported with minimum regulation. The bare bag insert for a reloadable mine is 1.3 or worse 1.1 so the transport storage and insurance restrictions cost so much more that it is cheaper to supply ready loaded mines in tubes.

[BrightStar]

And smokeless powder is definitely 1.1 and will require licensed storage and a personal COER approval.

As far as I can tell smokeless powder doesn't seem to require a personal explosive cert under COER Schedule 1.

http://www.hse.gov.u...erschedule1.htm

You'll note that, unfortunately for us, BP does. To buy smokeless powder a shotgun license is a helpful starting point.

Edited by BrightStar, 31 January 2008 - 03:26 PM.