29 replies to this topic

[dr thrust]

thats great news!... not! so I'm risking my liberty by having unmixed basic chems like sulfur and charcoal in my shed, hmmm is pyro worth it them id say no!, sorry but if theres no legal club then whats the point? are we all living on a knife edge....

I'm sick of looking over my shoulder all the time even when testing stars on the floor in case it attracts the attention of the neighbors. i want to be proud of my hobby and show everybody you know just like the pgi.... chris ( seriously considering pulling out of pyro) probably go back to my old hobby of welding up old sh*tboxes

[MMMMMM Pyro]

You know, I'm not that far off agreeing with you.

All we are getting now is ton of proverbial governmental faecal matter dumped on us from a great height. We should be able to do what we want to do how we want to do it. And they call this a free country, pah! Its a bloody full blown nanny-state crap hole to be blunt.

Sorry to any who were offended in reading that little rant.

[dr thrust]

so , best not have any chems, what so ever, hmm why are they so easy to buy then? i mean what else can 400# ali, magnallium be used for?.. cant put any in a tube because its a device, cant manufacture, cant store compositions, so if you've made a batch of stars and there drying this must be storing?

[GZ22]

Don't get too het up gentlemen - remember - you have the chemicals with the express intent of manufacturing energetic compositions - as long as you do so within the framework of MSER you should be OK. Being a paid-up member of UKPS is also a benefit in this respect.

Edited by GZ22, 15 February 2008 - 08:58 AM.

[YT2095]

Under the Act (the 1875 Act that is), it is an offence to possess chemicals that are intended for use in the manufacture of explosives. Owning KNO3 Charcoal and Sulphur and putting them on the same shelf is a tad difficult to explain! and it is an offence for which the burden of proof lies with you. Be warned!

in My case how DOES one go about proving a Negative?
and for the above poster my "Intent" isn`t to make any energitic materials (not in way of Pyro or stronger).
I`m a General Chemist, but I do have KNO3 (and about 30 other different oxidisers), I also have C and S (and over 50 different other Reducers).
ok, they`re NOT on the same shelf, but in the same stock room!

now I can prove what I DO, but there`s no Possible way to "Prove a negative", it`s a logical fallicy.

[Andrew]

in My case how DOES one go about proving a Negative?
and for the above poster my "Intent" isn`t to make any energitic materials (not in way of Pyro or stronger).
I`m a General Chemist, but I do have KNO3 (and about 30 other different oxidisers), I also have C and S (and over 50 different other Reducers).
ok, they`re NOT on the same shelf, but in the same stock room!

now I can prove what I DO, but there`s no Possible way to "Prove a negative", it`s a logical fallicy.

In your case you have the perfect excuse. "It a lab officer, in labs you find chemicals!"

Obviously your points are valid, why would you have all these chemicals in the same box under your shed table?? well you just wouldn't.

When it comes to the burden of proof issue, the CPS love these cases as they are pretty much open and shut; and they have to do very little work. This is why it is SO SO SO important to be ultra professional, whiter than white, open and mature yet discreet! An initial arrest or taking it further does depend very much so on your attitude upon first contact. Cocky and flippant remarks like "well I not breaking any laws" will only make it worse!

s long as you do so within the framework of MSER you should be OK.

On this note, the exemption in the MSER does not give you free reign to make explosives. Upon closer reading it turns out that in order to use the 100g exemption in MSER, you need a COER 'acquire and keep' licence! Which is by the way remarkably easier to arrange than any registration/licence under the MSER. Even so you need that little piece of paper before you can make explosives in 100g batches using the MSER exemption!

As Richard said earlier the UKPS is working very hard, at getting together a set of notes regarding getting legal. I for one am looking forward to the release.

[GZ22]

Very interesting! I didn't know that you needed an A&K certificate to go about the '100g rule'. Doesn't affect me directly as I don't practice pyro as a hobby. Nonetheless, makes perfect sense though.

[YT2095]

I have No objection at all with any Gov official coming into the Lab or looking at stuff and asking questions, with or without an Invitation, I do Object having my door kicked in at 4am or some other ungodly hour.

and that seems to be MO in most cases, from what I`v read

[MMMMMM Pyro]

While I do practice pyro, I am majorly a practical chemist. I am studying, with my same age (15) lab partner at A level and beyond purely because we both have a great interest in chemistry! We do have a very large array of reagents, some of which could be implicated in explosive practices, but we never EVER have any intent of using them for such!

This is where I both chastise the governement yet also I sympathise with them, they need to protect from terrorism (which they rarely succeed in doing) but they also should allow a curious chemist to practice chemistry, as long as it is done safely, which with most of us, it is.

[TCblastmaster]

This is a very interesting subject which has major relevance for us all.

Whilst I agree that we live in a nanny state that knows no boundaries to its incessant interference with our lives, I can understand why the authorities might be concerned about people making pyro compositions. While UKPS members put such things to a peaceful and aesthetically pleasing use, there are, regretably, a growing number of people who would be less inclined to do so.

The thing that worries me in a way is that it is easy (at the moment) to obtain chemicals that if combined correctly could be used to devastating effect. We know this, as presumably do others. I'm sure the government is 'wising-up' to this fact. In which case we don't need to worry because soon we will not be able to even experiment with any quantity, however small, of any composition capable of a self-sustaining exothermic reaction. Could this be the end of pyrotechnics as we know it??!! However, I'm sure they are too busy thinking of new ways to tax us.... so no need to worry just yet.

As far as I see it the only thing we can do is to be totally open about our hobby, belong to a good organisation like the UKPS, practice good housekeeping in the storage of chemicals, keep a minimum of prepared compositions at all times, and don't annoy the neighbours. Whether one is strictly within the law will always be debatable (particularly before a big display) but providing an indication of ones good intent must count for something. I'm sure we are all being watched (or at least our purchases) anyway.

I for one will continue my small scale production of quality pyrotechnics for my own personal enjoyment. I cannot help myself!!!

[YT2095]

I expect the thing that would also go very much in my favor is that I have no more than 250g of any single Oxidizer, and the Majority are less than 100g.
I simply don`t have the space OR the need for large amounts of these things, and the stuff I DO have a Kg+ of you couldn`t possibly make Anything dangerous with.
most of my stuff is more Toxic than energetic, and as far as I`m aware, there`s no Law against owning these.

non the less, I`ll bet that`s only a matter of time before Some law or other changes that too

[Arthur Brown]

Apart from a few legally regulated chemicals -well lots of them. The decisions are based on reasonableness. Zinc Silver and Gold (and other metals) are plated from cyanide solutions, so it is reasonable for a jewelery plater to have cyanide salts and have them securely and account for them by the gramme. If you have no reason for them cyanides become a major problem in that they are usable for major terror incidents.

Likewise with pyro chemicals BBQ lumpwood charcoal is uninteresting in the shed with the BBQ grill, Willow charcoal as sticks is uninteresting in an artist's studio if they draw in charcoal.

HOWEVER if the police are investigating a bang then things can change.

[MMMMMM Pyro]

Arthur is very much correct in this.

What the Police say and do, I suppose, is very much related to the exact incident they are looking into. If they were conducting a search for, say, drugs related materials, then the bag of Willow Charcoal powder is not going to phase them much. However if investigating a bang then it certainly will.

Interesting way of looking at things.

Just a quick off topic as to how much of a Nanny state we are: The goverment are considering stopping Modern Foreign Languages oral exams because they are deemed 'too stressful' -.-

[Arthur Brown]

YT's justification for chems is the research he does, which he will have documented even if the product of the research is confidential between him and his client.

Several forum members would do well to consider a small licensed store and a few may consider a licensed factory appropriate. Some probably have one or both already.

[YT2095]

to be entirely honest, I`v never had any Chem work that Has been "Confidential", in fact for the most part it`s been quite mundane, from Rat poisons, plant food tailor made for specific species, plant Medicine for specific ailments, some cleaning jobs, and Indicator solns used by a mate that runs a micro-brewery

I do get some cool things in where I get to test certain Minerals or metals.

And some disgusting ones where I`v had to check panties for Sperm traces as the guys missus was cheating on him!
the Latter sort of work I do keep confidential for obvious reasons.