240 replies to this topic

[Arthur Brown]

Arthur, I think many of us would like to attend the course, but before we do, can you give us some idea of the various costs of insurance policies involved in firing, storage, transport & manufacture of fireworks?

My Quote from Roy Musk for insurance for cat4 classified fireworks was 30% of turnover for the first year assuming that I had fired a few shows for someone else, so had some experience but no training. attending this course would take the premium down to 20% SO for £10K of gross firework business £2 - 3 K is a fair price for starting out in business. This figure could go up or down according the Roy Musk's (or Mr Torrible's) personal opinion of your training, experience and competence. The insurance will go down in subsequent years, but your first accident could also be your last.

Storage - as yet I have no idea! -Anyone want to rent me 1000Kg NEQ in a licensed store?

Transport of 1.4 stuff is reasonable by car 1.3 stuff may have only small weight limits in a car without ADR.

Manufacture ---I have no idea! No insurer will cover unclassified fireworks in a public show. SO you should ONLY display fireworks that have been classified in display situations.

I love the idea of hand made shells but with a chinese 3" shell costing about a pound no-one can beat the price!

This course is aimed at people who wish to fire commercial shows using classified fireworks for public display.

People who make fireworks will get something from the course concerning safe planning and firing.

[Spyrotechnics]

with regards to storage you need to factor in either purchasing a container (and then securing it) or renting one and then the rental for the land you are placing it on.

£50ish per month for a secure 20ft container (plus delivery)

£??? per month for the land (finding somewhere secluded, secure with a good safety distance isn't easy)

[crystal palace fireworks]

My Quote from Roy Musk for insurance for cat4 classified fireworks was 30% of turnover for the first year assuming that I had fired a few shows for someone else, so had some experience but no training. attending this course would take the premium down to 20% SO for £10K of gross firework business £2 - 3 K is a fair price for starting out in business. This figure could go up or down according the Roy Musk's (or Mr Torrible's) personal opinion of your training, experience and competence. The insurance will go down in subsequent years, but your first accident could also be your last.

Storage - as yet I have no idea! -Anyone want to rent me 1000Kg NEQ in a licensed store?

Transport of 1.4 stuff is reasonable by car 1.3 stuff may have only small weight limits in a car without ADR.

Manufacture ---I have no idea! No insurer will cover unclassified fireworks in a public show. SO you should ONLY display fireworks that have been classified in display situations.

I love the idea of hand made shells but with a chinese 3" shell costing about a pound no-one can beat the price!

This course is aimed at people who wish to fire commercial shows using classified fireworks for public display.

People who make fireworks will get something from the course concerning safe planning and firing.

Thanks Arthur and Stuart for your replies!

Wow........given the fact that 2 to 3k of a 10k gross show is spent on insurance in the first instance, I wonder what the typical end of year profit margin would be of a small display company?........(I know its an impossible question to answer.........and I don`t expect anyone to answer it fully for obvious reasons.........of course it depends on a variable number of factors too numerous to mention), Im curious though!........I might have to dig around companies house for more info!

In your opinion, How much would a display company have to spend (at typical trade prices) to buy enough fireworks to charge a customer 10k for a display? or should I say how many shells/fireworks would be fired?

Wow wow........It costs £1 to buy a 3" chinese shell?.......thats cheap!.....(no wonder my ancestors sold out to another company) it is almost impossible to make one for that price in this country!.....I wonder what `Kimbolton` is charging for there 3 inch shell?.....mind you, I guess his are made in china under license (even cheaper).

Im still waiting for the directorate of explosives for a reply regarding spec on storage!...I will get back to you once they reply!

cheers

Keith

[Arthur Brown]

A suggestion made to me by a wise person at a big company (no names!) suggested that 33% insurance, 33% product, 33% doing the show. leaving 1% profit!

Getting the RIGHT work is critical there is only one 5 Nov and one saturday after.

[Spyrotechnics]

£1 a shell has been and gone and to be honest you get what you pay for

The insurance brokers will work on a minimum premium, you may find for instance that a the minimum premium may cover you up to £20k or £30k turnover, you need to
ask, it's not as straight forward as every £10k of displays = £3k of insurance, there is a curved increase in premiums, not a straight line


Having said that, for each display you have the following to take into account..

Paperwork(invoices, risk assessments etc)
Insurance
Consumables (tape, cable ties, portfires etc)
Stakes, mortar racks, mortar tubes, candle fans etc etc
Fire Extinguishers
Transport (Van hire, fuel)
Wages

before you even start thinking about the fireworks

[AndyJones]

Is there still a need for some one to do the Cat 4 course? I am very interested. have fired a few shows and have a casual interest in the industry.

Many thanks

AndyJ

[Arthur Brown]

Welcome Andy! This is a much better place to talk making fireworks!

I have the tutor all available, tho date not confirmed! There is room for more participants

[AndyJones]

Then I am very much interested!

[RegimentalPyro]

This seems worthwhile. Mark me as interested.

[Arthur Brown]

1) Arthur Brown
2) Phil Dunford
3) Dean-portfire
4) Digger Barnes
5) Joseph-BrightStar

6? Stew
7? Cooperman435
8? TCblastmaster
9? AndyJones
10? Badger (are you still on the forum?)

Is how the list stands at the moment.

Closing date for the list is 14th June.

Target date for the course will be a saturday in late september 9am registration 9pm fire a small real cat 4 show.

Suggested venue area Coalville or Countesthorpe both in Leicestershire, or West Bridgford (Nottingham) All have classroom space and firing space.

This event MAY possibly be combined with Icarus autumn meet If there is to be one, or, the evening may become the autumn meet if Icarus doesn't want to run one.

Edited by Arthur Brown, 04 June 2008 - 09:33 PM.

[digger]

Some time has now passed. Is there any further news on this yet Arthur?

[Arthur Brown]

With 5 definite and four half interested people on the list (one has already pulled out! The course can be ON BUT not at the cost per person I hoped for.


If you are still interested then please respond to me BY EMAIL The cost will likely be £170 if six of us pay. Please confirm that you are 18 or over, and your real name, and that you will pay a cheque in advance.

Whatever your forum name, you will have to take the course and exam in your real name!

[phildunford]

Well guys, don't like to be a spoil sport, but I first said £100 ceiling and then upped it to £150. If it's now up to £170 (plus about £50 petrol and probably an overnight hotel) then it's just too rich for something that will only really be of academic interest to me (the likelyhood of me starting a display company is pretty slim!).

£150 or less, I'm in, more than £150 I'm out, got to draw the line somewhere...

[Arthur Brown]

If all the people who were interested actually pay it's down to £100 each. BUT getting money out of forumtes... I'm not going to run this at a loss.

If you want to be considered competent with cat4 then a course is a significant part. Each supplier is responsible for only selling cat 4 to competent professionals.

[Arthur Brown]

I find it rather worrying that with 1257 members there are not 12 that care enough to do a quick course in firing the product we all seem keen to have and use.

I also see courses like this as steps toward te "light side" to prove good intent and reason to possess fireworks. Similarly the ASP course, It's the stage pyro defacto standard and your name goes on the assn public register if and when you pass the course.