240 replies to this topic

[Spyrotechnics]

So Arthur, do you think companies would accept this course as 'surpassing BPA 1 & 2'? It does not have a name or reputation as such, and I do wonder what it would mean to other companies in the industry - lots I hope, but I don't know...

I know the question was aimed at Arthur but I just thought I would offer up an answer as a display company owner.

The course would be an unknown to most companies, they may know the tutor (Steve) but that wouldn't mean they would know anything about the content/level etc.

I wouldn't assume that companies accept BPA (either levels) as competence on a display site. The fact that you are supposed to have undertaken a certain number of displays prior to sitting the BPA exams does give you an idea of a persons on site experience however you are "supposed" to have done a set number of displays, it's not checked/verified as far as I am aware.

Showing the commitment to pay for and sit a course has to be seen as a positive however there is no substitute for experience

[Arthur Brown]

Companies looking for crew firers would possibly want L1 and L2 firers because they do not know too much! A course to get L1 and L2 would cost more then there would be exam fees, log book fees etc, for L1 then again for L2 AND YES you would have to be a firer attatched to a company to be entitled to do the courses of training. That company would have to engage you for three "experience shows" to get your L1 and more to get the L2. No companies pay for training shows and you would have to travel to about 3 shows, a training day and an exam day for L1 then same again for L2. BPA exams are on the third Sunday of the month except oct and nov I think.

Perhaps a BPA member company, also a member here may offer a L1 and L2 course at moderate cost.

[Spyrotechnics]

AND YES you would have to be a firer attatched to a company to be entitled to do the courses of training

Not the case, or at least it wasn't a couple of years ago when we sat our courses. We took BPA2 with Fully Fused Fireworks and they certainly allowed people to sit the course who didn't want to be affiliated with a particular company (they fired for a number of companies and wanted to be classed as Freelance)

[Arthur Brown]

OK reworded

for BPA you should be a firer for one or more companies the BPA site specifically says that L1 and L2 is NOT for independent operators of firework shows. perhaps it is for independent firers for (several) companies.

However if you were a independent freelance operator for a company then in the event of an incident HSE would look at BOTH the firer and the company, and having insurance for BOTH the operator and the company could become a necessity. An independent freelance operator can be presumed in law to be a responsible person and a place where the liability can fall. An employed firer is always part of the company and the company catches the liabilities.

The problem with the pyro industry is that claims are rarely small, so there has to be insurance in place even though that is not cheap, it IS far cheaper than a small compensation claim, legal costs and possible prosecutions.

[Spyrotechnics]

yes, a freelance firer is not a freelance operator

[starseeker]

Calm down dear, its just an opinion....



The comment wasn't a swipe at the course it was aimed towards the guys who were excited/nervous at the prospect of getting the results, meaning don't worry if you don't pass as there aren't any real implications to passing/failing apart from your own knowledge that you absorbed and retained what the course tutor intended, which is good

Actually depending on your reasons for doing this course,there were implications if you failed.
When the course had finnished steve said to us,when you have got insurance and storage,i will be quite happy to sell you cat 4.Which to me meant,A,we had passed,and b,This course is very worthwhile doing if you would like to set up your own display bussinese.

Edited by starseeker, 28 September 2008 - 09:29 AM.

[Spyrotechnics]

When the course had finnished steve said to us,when you have got insurance and storage,i will be quite happy to sell you cat 4

Well my view, for what it's worth, supplying Cat4 to someone who may not have any display experience is dangerous.

[johndee]

Well my view, for what it's worth, supplying Cat4 to someone who may not have any display experience is dangerous.

That is was the point of the course, to give people some experience and the knowledge on how to fire a display safely.

[Spyrotechnics]

Attending a course does not give someone experience of staging their own displays and should not entitle someone to purchase Cat4 material, it's just plain dangerous.

The course may well have given a very useful insight into various aspects of what is involved in running your company however experience on site, in the wind and rain etc etc is invaluable and is worth far more than ANY course you can take.

Edited by Starsky72, 28 September 2008 - 05:09 PM.

[Arthur Brown]

Starsky72 please chill.

There are four parts to being a competent user of cat4 fireworks, Insurance, licensed storage, experience and training, the course was chosen to provide the training element and met or exceeded its brief. Several participants on the course demonstrated prior firing experience with either cat3 or supervised with cat4. Several of us have fully logged firing experience for a year or more.

None of my previous shows have trained me in the legislation governing fireworks use or storage, this course did. I and everyone else gained a lot from the day, and each of us is in a much better position to look for storage, get it licensed and get insurance. If you think that you can learn about the 1875 act MSER HSWA COMAH et al from firing a show in a muddy field you delude yourself. Yes experience is important but from my personal firing experience some companies have some seriously dubious practises, far better to gain some good skills from an experienced trainer as well as get field experience.

Of the people on the course everyone learnt lots, and there is every chance that some will fire shows more safely because of the course. There may even be some commercial successes.

[Spyrotechnics]

far better to gain some good skills from an experienced trainer as well as get field experience

Couldn't agree more, neither being mutually exclusive.

As for chilling, I am chilled, doesn't change the fact that supply of Cat WITHOUT having the field experience is dangerous

[phildunford]

Don't want to be contentious here (would I ever ) but although I have put my hand in my pocket for this course and try to comply with what I can, I think we are in danger of vastly overestimating how hard it is to put on a small CAT 4 display.

Huge displays are a different matter, control of massive crowds, services liaison, logistics etc. But small ones?

30 years ago (when there were less controls on these things) I was asked to put on a display for a church centenary. I wrote to the nice Rev Lancaster at Kimbolton (he was just starting up!) and purchased a respectable amount of fireworks including 2, 3 and 4 inch shells.

I read the instructions, set it all up (with the help of my wife and a few friends) and fired it safely and successfully to general public approval - no training. It was successful enough that I was asked to fire more in subsequent years. Never had an accident, never had a complaint, never had any training.

I'm afraid that training these days is mostly a way of protecting oneself from litigious people - yes I'm 'trained' so it's harder for you to sue me.

In my first job (Computer engineer for Burroughs machines) we reckoned to spend 3 months of the year training. A mini-computer training course was six weeks residential. We knew every circuit and every component. It meant something.

Last year I had to go on a 'working at heights' course because we use step ladders. 2 hours at a hire-services shop being shown ladders - farce!

Think I’ve rambled off topic here – main point, rocket science is not necessarily rocket science!

[Spyrotechnics]

Apologies for coming across as spiky as I did, I have just see inexperienced people go to pieces on site when say a cake or candle misfires and feel strongly that access to Cat4 via academic means alone CAN be a recipe for disaster.

[starseeker]

Attending a course does not give someone experience of staging their own displays and should not entitle someone to purchase Cat4 material, it's just plain dangerous.

The course may well have given a very useful insight into various aspects of what is involved in running your company however experience on site, in the wind and rain etc etc is invaluable and is worth far more than ANY course you can take.

Quite obviously just because you have taken part in a course does not make you a expert,but if you have shown competence,in handling,rigging and fireing,and get your insurance and storage,why should you not have access to cat 4 ?

No one is suggesting that you can then put on a £100,000 show but start small and work your way up.
After using cat 3 for many years i dont see what all the fuss is about when all you maybe want to to is add a few shells to your show.
After all most of us started with cat 1 in our kitchens !

There still seems to be a bit of elitism attached to cat 4 users and maybe this should not be the case.

[Arthur Brown]

The course 100% achieved it's aim. No doubt No discussion!!

The aim was training in the basic competencies necessary to be insureably safe using cat4 in displays. It satisfies the "Training" aspect of the core competencies needed to be safe. It does not give experience though several of us have logged experience as assistants on shows. The storage is a necessity and insurance is a payable product.