45 replies to this topic

[maxman]

Can anyone please tell me if I can substitute potassium chlorate for potassium nitrate when making red stars with strontium carbonate / shellac?
I have seen 65/15/20 comp with kclo3 but due to limited supplies and the fact that a blackpowder burst would be used would prefer to play safe away from the chlorate!

[bernie]

If I understand correctly...you want to replace the chlorate with the nitrate? Potassium nitrate will not produce color. Not the kind your after anyway.

Edited by bernie briden, 17 August 2003 - 07:03 PM.

[maxman]

OK thanks for that, at least I know now. As I understand it, if I use Chlorate then I can't safley use bp as the burst chage because of the sulphur?

Is there any other way of making coulred stars using kno3? or is it a matter of finding other comps that don't include sulphur for the burst and use Chlorate? any colors are ok but limited supplies here in uk. Not got perchlorate!

[bernie]

Besides charcoal fire dust your not going to get any colors. I admire the fact that you want to stay away chlorate/sulfur incompatabilities. It shows darn good sense. There are other burst charges that could be used but you have limited resources so these won't help.

[Pyromaster2003]

cant you simply split the stars from the burst charge with tissue paper?

[BigG]

OK thanks for that, at least I know now. As I understand it, if I use Chlorate then I can't safley use bp as the burst chage because of the sulphur?

Is there any other way of making coulred stars using kno3? or? is it a matter of finding other comps that don't include sulphur for the burst and use Chlorate? any colors are ok but limited supplies here in uk. Not got perchlorate!

Yes. You can create red stars using KNO3, Strontium Carbonate, Chloride donor (for example PVC), shallac or red gum and magnesium/magnelium. Unfortunately, the magnesium or magnelium are necessary so the flame will be hot enough to produce colours.

There are very few colours you can produce using nitrates without magnesium/magnesium. For example, you can create yellow using sodium nitrate, but it’s very hygroscopic so you will have to use the stars immediately (you don’t need chlorine donor for sodium yellow). With magnesium/magnelium + chlorine donor you can create almost all colours.

Stay Green. BigG

Edited by BigG, 16 February 2004 - 10:50 AM.

[maxman]

Thanks for the info! I've got some strontium carbonate on order and mag powder but can't source any pvc yet. Is it absolutley necessary? and can you recommend what % to use with kno3?

[Pazza]

if you have some kclo3 on hand you could try making some H3 (77% kclo3 / 23% C) for a bursting charge
i believe that this mixture is quite sensitve (similar to flash?) but i cant tell you for sure as i have never made it
-the method that pyromaster described would work just as well should you be using BP for a burst
this guy's site has some information on H3:
http://www.geocities...ceuk/index.html

[BigG]

Thanks for the info! I've got some strontium carbonate on order and  mag powder but can't source any pvc yet. Is it absolutley necessary? and can you recommend what % to use with kno3?

It is necessary. For colours to appear you must have chlorine present (we will not get into the science behind it?). Chlorates and Parchlorates release some chlorine when they decompose in the flame (even then ? many formulas use additional chlorine provider to enhance the colour). Nitrates do not. Other chlorine donors you can use are parlon, saran, chlorez and other ? but they are all chemicals you are not likely to find outside your pyro supplier. You can salvage some PVC from sculpy (which is an art clay ? similar to fimo), but that?s an expensive way to go.

Also, remember ? magnesium corrodes in water! You will have to coat it with linseed oil if you are going to use water as your solvent or store the device for a long time. Stars made with magnesium produce lots of smoke ? so the colour is not as nice as Parchlorate/Chlorate based compositions.

Magnesium is dangerous when it ignites ? and increases the sensitivity of mixtures. It?s a powerful reducing agent and will extract oxygen from water, most liquids and given enough time, even from rock and sand. As such, make sure you have large bucket of sand nearby when working with magnesium. Water will just enhance the flame. Also, don?t try to ignite magnesium by itself to see how it looks. You will be blind for anything from minutes to days.

Other then that ? magnesium is cool

Stay Green! BigG

P.S H3 is necessary to produce good break on small shells ? but if you are now focusing on colour ? keep it on the back burner. It?s a very sensitive mixture.

P.S.S I will post some formulas later. I?m not near my black (actually red hot) book

[BigG]

Few Nitrate + Mg formulas...

Green (Bleser)
Barium Nitrate 55
Magnesium, 100-325 mesh 18
Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC). 15
Parlon 12

Red (Bleser)
Strontium Nitrate 55
Magnesium, 100-325 mesh 28
Parlon 10
Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC). 7

White (Bleser)
Barium Nitrate 53
Magnesium, 100-325 mesh 28
Potassium Nitrate 12
Parlon 7

BigG

[maxman]

Thats great thanks i'll make a note of them! but still suffering from short supplies and only have strontium carbonate rather than nitrate for the colouring agent. Got magnesium powder (i believe it has to be coated in linseed oil or something?) kno3 sulphur charcoal and zinc powder. No pvc yet.
Anything I can do with that little lot?

[Stuart]

I have added an update to My Site that is a zip file with 300+ diffrent mixtures. You might find something in there.

[maxman]

Ok so let me get this right, I now have strontium carbonate , kno3, shellac, magnesium, I now need a chlorine doner, so if I can find a way to powder PVC from a pipe or conduit would this work? as I am unable to find another source here in the UK. Next point is about coating the magnesium with linseed oil and how to do it? but will this be necessary if using alcohol as a binder with the shellac? And last of all (yes I know i'm a pain) but like to get things right.What % of the above should I use? as I can't find any comps on here or the net that uses only the above chemicals.
Thanks for everyones help!

[BigG]

None of your questions has a strait answer

Okay, first, plastic pipes also called PVC are NOT PVC. The letters PVC stand for Polyvinyl Chloride, which is a chemical element of white crystals. By itself, PVC decomposes at low temperatures and releases chlorine, which is great for pyro. Combined with other materials, it plasticise and become the hard substance that PVC pipes are made from ? it is also much more resilient to fire and does not release it?s chlorine easily. As such, depend of the manufacture process of the pipe, and the % of PVC in it, it might or might not release chlorine.

The Chinese used KNO3, magnesium and a carbonate for the production of colours before chlorates and perchlorates where available. So ? you can be sure that formulas do exist. It?s just a matter of finding them. I?ll have a look around.

Most compositions will have some type of nitrate in them. In dump conditions, magnesium reacts with nitrate and become useless ? so you probably will need to coat it. Heat in large pan (over hotplate ? not fire!!!) with 5% linseed, mix and make sure the magnesium is coated uniformly. Continue heating until all the oil that did not ?soak? into the metal evaporates. Since magnesium can catch fire much easier then let?s say ? iron, you should mix using long spoon so your hand is never above the pan ? also wear wielders mask or at least very dark glasses ? just in case it does catch fire. Do the whole process outside.


Stay Green!!! BigG

[maxman]

GREAT!!! I just knew there was going to be more to this than meets the eye! Should have just ordered some KCLO3. now I'm unstuck again and looking for a chlorine donor, so near but so far!