28 replies to this topic

[BrightStar]

I would not recommend the pestle and mortar idea because to be frank if it sparks etc... that's not gonna be pretty.

Some good tips from MMMMMM Pyro above. I do believe though that wet grinding BP in a pestle and mortar in <30g quantities outside and with gloves and glasses is relatively safe and a really good 'hands on' way to learn. It's much more accessible than ball milling.

See here: http://www.musketeer...omemade_bp.html

The first really good firework I ever made was a 2" D1 Glitter mine, with the lift made with a mortar and pestle and the stars with a marker pen star pump. It put up a spectacular column of stars higher than my house - I'll never forget it Ball milling came much later.

Edited by BrightStar, 26 May 2008 - 06:07 PM.

[flamingsquirrel]

hey, thanks for the replies guys.

I'd like to make this clear:

I relize the internet is mine field of crap information, which is why I looked for as many sources as possible, what I linked to etc seemed the most correct information,i read a lot ofthe TOTSE backyard ballistics forum, and they generaly seemed to know what they were doing, and those guides were recomened by them. I also know TOTSE is full of shit, so I decided instead of jumping on a pile of chemicals and dismembering myself, I would check a few other sources, this being one of them. I'm glad I did, as it seems Flash isnt a good idea at all. Also, even if I was going to make flash, I shouldn't skimp out and go the cheaper/easier method (KNO3 and Al) when dealing with something that is by nature, an explosive.

I think I'll stick to BP, just make a basic small batch with the supplies listed before. Test out unconfined burning speeds with different charcoals etc etc etc.

after I get a nice powder, or am done with testing burning speeds, I will probably eventualy expiriment with a few different "bangs" just small time stuff like triangle crackers etc.

the anarchist cook book is shit, I have known that for a very long time.

Again: I was not planning to act on any of this information untill i had several sources confirm it was a viable and safe, which is exactly why I came here, to find out if it was really a good idea.

Just to clarify: those stupid little "bangs" i made with model rocket engine powder were just small expiriments, I know that stuff is relatively safe, so decided to see if I could make anything with it.

actualy I will probably do a lot of expirimenting with KNO3 (smoke devices, fuses (i know KNO3 fuses aren't the best, but it's worth trying out) etc) before trying to make BP.

BTW my motar and pestle are both marble, so no risk of sparks...

Is this an ok guide for CIA black powder? LINK


Asteroid: air cannons could be another project, I do have an air compressor...

Um.. so yeah, I hope I cleared that up. I'm not some dumb ass who went "I WANT TO MAKE BOOM!" I heard that flash powder was easy to make, with easily aquireable materials, I looked into it a bit, didnt seem that hard, order a few chemicals, mix them on a peice of paper. But instead of just ording the stuff and blowing myself up, I deicded to look into it further, do some more research, ask around, seek advice of people older and wiser than me, that can hopefully help me too keep all my fingers

EDIT: Brightstar:
I read that, and most everything on that site already, it was very informative and helpfull.

Edited by flamingsquirrel, 26 May 2008 - 06:01 PM.

[GalFisk]

Sounds like a good plan Flamingsquirrel. The CIA guide is ok, ethanol or acetone also works instead of isopropyl, acetone likes to boil and spatter but also seems to cool the stuff a lot quicker. This produces more flammable vapor too though.
Use latex gloves or similar, and working clothes, cooking BP is messy.
I've built air cannons, they are fun and there's a lot to learn there as well.

[flamingsquirrel]

ok, don't call me an idoit, don't say I'm going to blow myself up, but:

I heard of another method to make BP, where you put each ingriedient seperatley into a coffe grinder, then grind with motar and pestle, then dry mix them.
Actualy, the guy who made the tutorial was a bit stupid, and ground the KNO3 by itself, then the charcoal, then added the sulfer to the charcoal and ground it again. then, he put the KNO3 and charcoal/sulfer into a GLASS JAR and added little peices of LED and SHOOK the jar to mix >_<

I was wondering if I could adapt that, grind each ingriedient seperatley in the coffee grinder (cleaning it out after each one) then seperatley in a motar and pestle (cleaning it out after each one), then dry mix them on paper (the diaper method). I want to check with you guys if this a completely retarded idea, or if it could work, as long as I'm not concered about making very very high quality powder.


also: my family heats during the winter with a woodstove. I'm not sure exactly WHAT kind of wood we burn, as it changes with every person we buy it from, but it is a possibility I could gather charcoal from that. At least it would be something to compare against the willow charcoal art sticks.

[Arthur Brown]

If you use timber for heating then you must have trees near by! Biology lesson to identify all the trees in the neighbourhood first. Underlying plot - to find willow and pine trees.

[Bonny]

For lift powder you could try and find willow as Arthur Brown recommended, but you could also use alder,poplar,(Silver)maple
For sparks/effects pine or course as well as most fir trees or spruce. I'm sure what you burn will be one of these species...depending who you get from at the time.

[Arthur Brown]

www.pyrodirect.com/ccp0-prodshow/020-0235.html will get you a really good textbook on black powder and explosives. Read it all very carefully

[BrightStar]

Regarding the coffee grinders, you can choose to use the grinder for charcoal and sulfur together, or the KNO3 on its own. To do both safely you would need 2 grinders - one for fuels and one for oxidisers. They always leak slightly and have hot, sparky motors so you can't use the same grinder for both, even in separate batches. If you have only one, use it for the charcoal and sulfur.

In the final stage of grinding, everything has to be incorporated together. Go outside and powder the weighed out KNO3 as fine as you can in the mortar and pestle. Put on your safety glasses and gardening gloves and add the weighed out C and S to it from the coffee grinder. Dampen this mix very slightly with water (maybe with some rubbing alcohol added to thin it) then grind it together in the mortar and pestle for at least 40 minutes. It's hard work!

When done, gradually add more of the water/alcohol mix, form it into a 'ball of clay' with your hands (latex gloves help here) and grate it through a coarse kitchen seive to granulate. Set it to dry for a day or two somewhere warm with no naked flames.

Start with small batches of about 30g. Even 3g of good BP will produce an enormous bang when confined.

Be careful!

Edited by BrightStar, 28 May 2008 - 11:01 PM.

[flamingsquirrel]

I live in the city. Also, we burn hard wood, we get it from other people. Stuff like Oak, maple, cherry, ash.

Now, I DO have a nice supply of pine...

we break this stuff at my karate school
It's pine, but that's not good for heating, as it burns fast, and the sap clogs up your chimney. I do have quite a few broken boards just sitting around, I could burn them at a bonfire or something, and collect the charcoal.




EDIT: BrightStar:
Alright, I can do that. A few questions as to how things work and why you're doing them:

If everything is already ground up very fine, why do you need to grind it up again when it's fully mixed? I assume the water is to reduce the chance of ignition while grinding everything mixed, why the rubbing alcohol? And why does it need to be ground up for so long?

Wouldn't you want the BP to be as fine as possible? I'm just thinking after getting it wet, and clumping it up, even when run through a very small sieve (mesh strainer kind, right?) it wouldn't be as fine as it would be simply dry mixed... Or would having it in larger "clumps" (though they would be very small granules as you put it) increase the surface area making it more explosive, where as if it was very fine, it would burn more as fuel, like a model rocket?

Edited by flamingsquirrel, 28 May 2008 - 09:53 PM.

[mike_smith919]

[QOUTEWouldn't you want the BP to be as fine as possible? I'm just thinking after getting it wet, and clumping it up, even when run through a very small sieve (mesh strainer kind, right?) it wouldn't be as fine as it would be simply dry mixed... Or would having it in larger "clumps" (though they would be very small granules as you put it) increase the surface area making it more explosive, where as if it was very fine, it would burn more as fuel, like a model rocket?[QUOTE]

Your right there, grains a few millimeters in size is used as 'lift' while rammed/pressed into 1 large grain of fuel in a tube would be slower burning i.e. rockets and fountains.

there is a whole topic on making charcoal give it a read before you try making some.
http://www.pyrosocie...p?showtopic=826

[pyromaniac303]

If everything is already ground up very fine, why do you need to grind it up again when it's fully mixed? I assume the water is to reduce the chance of ignition while grinding everything mixed, why the rubbing alcohol? And why does it need to be ground up for so long?

The grinding together works the potassium nitrate into the tiny pores on the surface of the charcoal, so they are mixed more thoroughly. The moisture also does this by dissolving the potassium nitrate so it flows into the pores then dries out and solidifies. The rubbing alcohol just helps it to dry faster because alcohol evaporates much quicker than water. It also reduces surface tension so you dont get charcoal floating on the surface (not that youll be adding that much water anyway, hopefully!) but it may help with mixing.

Edited by pyromaniac303, 28 May 2008 - 10:54 PM.

[BrightStar]

EDIT: BrightStar:
Alright, I can do that. A few questions as to how things work and why you're doing them:

If everything is already ground up very fine, why do you need to grind it up again when it's fully mixed? I assume the water is to reduce the chance of ignition while grinding everything mixed, why the rubbing alcohol? And why does it need to be ground up for so long?

Wouldn't you want the BP to be as fine as possible? I'm just thinking after getting it wet, and clumping it up, even when run through a very small sieve (mesh strainer kind, right?) it wouldn't be as fine as it would be simply dry mixed... Or would having it in larger "clumps" (though they would be very small granules as you put it) increase the surface area making it more explosive, where as if it was very fine, it would burn more as fuel, like a model rocket?

I've probably already said too much here - it's better to research and experiment for yourself

The finely powdered BP ingredients don't just need to be mixed, they need to be 'incorporated'. This involves grinding them together. The fine KNO3 particles, along the sulfur are mechanically worked into the porous surface of the charcoal on a microscopic scale. When you have done this properly, the meal powder produced is so fine that it is a completely uniform grey dust. Unfortunately 40 mins of hard work is the minimum time it takes to do this with a 30g mortar and pestle batch...

The water does reduce the spark risk and helps the incorporation. Adding some rubbing alcohol reduces the water's surface tension, allowing it to mix easily with the powder. It also speeds up the drying. Traditionally beer or wine might have been used instead...

I'll leave it to you to research how and why you then need to granulate the meal powder to end up with BP. Every stage in the process is important to achieve good results.

Edited by BrightStar, 28 May 2008 - 11:05 PM.

[Bonny]

The water does reduce the spark risk and helps the incorporation. Adding some rubbing alcohol reduces the water's surface tension, allowing it to mix easily with the powder. It also speeds up the drying. Traditionally beer or wine might have been used instead...

I think beer or wine would be better used elsewhere.

[Arthur Brown]

The inorganic chemistry of BP et al is a start! After that if you can master the science you could study the chemistry of High Explosives (which is totally out of order on this forum) The Organic chem can be quite interesting, especially the reaction routes, methods mechanisms and dynamics.