28 replies to this topic

[flamingsquirrel]

please don't be scared off by my wall o text.. plz

I'm in the USA, BTW

I am homeschooled. There are good points, and bad, but i wont get into that right
now. An incredibly awesome point, is that I have convinced my parents to let me
attempt to make flash powder, as a "school project" they will fund it, as long as I
do everything in an orderly manner, and have some kind of presentable portfolio at
the end.

I decided that some kind of KNO3 mixture would be best, because I can start making
KNO3 and Sugar smoke things, as well as expiriment with fuses etc.
I know there are several different mixtures, but I decided, again, to go with
something that uses KNO3 because I can use it for other things as well. Now most
guides that use KNO3 say to use KNO3 and Sulpher and Aluminium powder. Acording to
this guide, I can use just KNO3 and Al, 60/40 by weight, like .6 grams Al, .4 grams KNO3.
I know the KNO3 is an oxidizer, which is why it is often used in tree stump remover,
as it would speed up decomposition, and Al is the fuel, Sulpher is used to help light
it, correct? So would I be able to do without the Sulpher in my mixture? That guide
is listed as a reliable source in one of the stickys at the TOTSE Backyard Ballistics forum.

So for the school project part, I am video taping all efforts, and will make some
kind of video showing how I made it, the results, etc. I am also documenting
everything in a notebook (casing making methods, the results and how I made/detonated each device, etc)

I was planning on using these supplies:

Scale

KNO3

Al

would these work?

Once the KNO3 arrives, I would start by experimenting with different fuses, KNO3
dissolved in water, soak paper and string in water, let dry, test, see if there is a
difference between paper and string, do the same with KNO3 and sugar disolved in
water, and KNO3 and sugar with a bit of water to make a paste. And with the KNO3 and
sugar mixtures, test wrapping them in foil and "baking" them with a flame until a
puff of smoke comes from one end, to bond the sugar and KNO3 (no idea if that works,
or does anything, saw it in a youtube video) then try different ratios of KNO3 and
Sugar, 1/1, 70/40, etc

Once I'm satisfied with Fuse tests, I will move on to smoke things, with the KNO3 and
Sugar in a pan. I'm not totally familiar with this, as I haven't researched that very
much at this point. I think you add somewhere around a 1/1 ratio of sugar and KNO3
with water, and heat it, untill it becomes , paste, keep stirring until I get waxy
liquid like stuff, which would be when the sugar caramelizes, then pour into some
container, let it dry, then light, and it burns very hotly, no? Again, experiment
with different ratios and methods, add the weakest and best to my video, once I'm
satisfied with the smoke, move onto Flash powder itself (I may need more KNO3 at this
point, I have no idea how much im going to go through, I hope 1lb will last me a while)

As for the flash itself, I would first try the 60/40, if that's what you guys suggest, unconfined, in a very small amount, and record it of course. Then try changing it slightly, maybe 70/40, or 60/50 etc, see the results, unless that is some terrible mistake that will cost me fingers, which is why I'm asking you guys to help me out Once I got a nice mixture down, I will probably start experimenting with different casings, or little fire crackers.

As for what kind of casings, I actually developed something VERY similar to the method described in the "Hardware Store Flash Powder" tutorial, I took a 3x5 notecard, cut in in half lengthwise, and wrapped it around a thich pen tightly, then took the 2nd half and wrapped it around the first, and taped it shut very tightly, this made some nice sized little casings. To plug up the ends, I wadded up some paper, and shoved it down the tube with the pen, smooshing it flat, then put some Gorilla Glue on the outside end. The Gorilla Glue expanded, and filled up quite nicely, then I put some hot glue on the inside of the tube to cover the paper on the inside. I broke out some old model rocket engines, cut them open, and took the powder (everything, not just the BP, unfortunately) after packing the powder in tightly, I added a layer of aluminum foil on top of it. Then I took part of a sparkler as a fuse, and wrapped the middle in aluminum foil, and left both ends uncovered, I poked one end through the aluminum foil into the powder, then put hot glue on top the of the foil (it didn't hurt the fuse, because it was covered by the foil wrapping I gave it) then put wadded paper on top of the glue before it dried. Once the hot glue dried I added some Gorilla Glue on the outside to seal everything up. The fuse was poking out of the top.

Unfortunatley when I tried this cracker today, it didn't work so well. I suspect the fuse left too big of a hole and the gas just escaped out of that. Here is a .zip with 3 videos in it, test 1 is the test described in this paragraph. The .zip is only 3.3mb. Here is a mirror if you don't like megaupload. You can see the 2nd camera, that was supposed to get a nice view, but malfunctioned and decided not to write to the SD card :/

I took the rest of my powder, and made the same thing, but on a much larger scale, with a film canister. First filling the bottom part with hot glue, then tin foil, then powder, then tin foil, sticking in my fuse, then lots of hot glue keeping the cap on, then glue around the seam of the lid, then covered it in masking tape. Unfortunatley, it took longer for the glue to dry on the top, because it wasn't open to the air, the lid was on top, and I didn't check the see if it was all the way dry, I just came back after 30 min. In the video you can see the lid shoot off and all my powder fly into the air. Here is a .zip with 3 videos in it, test 2 is the test described in this paragraph. The .zip is only 3.3mb. Here is a mirror if you don't like megaupload.
(pre-masking tape of course)

I did get a LITTLE bit of powder back from the 2nd one, it was unburnt in the bottom of the casing, I decided to make a triangle cracker with it. This actually worked the best of all 3, lol. The video test 3 has the triangle. my plan was to light it, throw it, then pick up the camera and record the result, but the fuse was shorter than expected, and it blew up in the air, so you don't get a very good view (I left the camera recording while I lit it) It made a nice pop that you can barely hear in the video, and shot the sparkler fuse into a nearby bush. you can hear my weird laugh, as I was happy something finally worked, instead of fizzling out. Here is a .zip with 3 videos in it, test 3 is the test described in this paragraph. The .zip is only 3.3mb. Here is a mirror if you don't like megaupload.

So if you actually read my wall-o-text, I congratulate you! If not, you can skip the last three paragraphs, and just read the rest, and give me suggestions/tips etc.

Thanks!

PS: Just thought I'd mention I am interested in a safe, stable mixture, I like my hands with all fingers intact thanks. When I tested even those small things in the video, I was wearing safety glasses and hearing protection. This is fun, but losing your hearing, and getting chunks of homemade firecrackers in you eye is not.

Edited by flamingsquirrel, 25 May 2008 - 04:38 PM.

[dr thrust]

hi, sorry but i dont think you'll get much help from this forum if your after bangs and smoke, why not make something beautiful (and needing actual skill to make) like a small fountain, there would much more to write about for your" project"

[BrightStar]

Sorry mate but NO this is not a good science project. There's a good reason why the limit for flash in firecrackers is 0.05g...

Why not spend some time investigating how to make really good black powder? It's much more useful - lift, burst, fuses, stars etc. etc. and you can test the performance (measuring the burn rate or firing a baseball from a tube and timing the flight) as you go along.

Any fool can make flash given the correct ingredients and all it does is go bang. Making and demonstrating the power of really good BP is an art in itself and the mark of a true pyrotechnician. Learning to do this would be well worth the effort

It's not expensive - all you need is your scale, KNO3, willow charcoal from the art shop, sulfur from the garden centre, a small pestle and mortar, water, some research and lots of hard work...

Edited by BrightStar, 25 May 2008 - 06:23 PM.

[Richard H]

I'm afraid you won't find any help here if all you aim to do is make loud bangs. Your project sounds quite dangerous and I think you should stop and think very carefully! I would be extremely weary of the various online sources you seem to be reading from. You should get some proper books on the subject and start with small, safe projects. Making exploding fireworks with no prior knowledge of energetic materials is a certain way to get hurt.

I have already received reports from concerned members about your post. It does I am afraid to say, have an element of 'kewl' about it. Why not focus your efforts evaluating the performances of different charcoals in black powder mixtures, or how the ratios and particle size can affect combustion? Why not plot the results on a ternary diagram and suggest trends from your results? Putting flash powder into a film cannister is hardly an academic exercise is it?

[flamingsquirrel]

Hahahaha. Those stupid film canister things were just experiments to see if that kind of casing was a viable option, I wouldn't have tested anything powerful in them.

After doing more reading, it does seem that black powder would be a better choice. I DO NOT plan on making something dangerous, and blowing myself up. I was told that KNO3 and Al was a very weak and stable form of flash powder, and it sounded easier than making BP, so I decided to look into it. I HAVEN'T ordered anything, or done anything. As of now it's still ideas floating around in my head. But I agree, the more I read, the less I like the idea of making flash, it seems unstable and dangerous. I'll start looking into making BP. Anyone have any guides they'd like to recommend?


EDIT: ok, so looks like the common formula is

70:15:10

so for insance:
7 grams of KNO3
1.5 grams of charcoal
1 gram of sulfer

correct? Another place says "71 % sodium nitrate, 17 % soft-wood charcoal and 12 % sulfur." what do you guys suggest?

take each ingridient seperatly and grind in mortal and pestle, then combine in a plastic bag or something. One video said to put the KNO3 in a coffe grinder, grind, put it in a bag, then put charcoal in the coffe grinder, grind, then add the sulfer in with it and grind, then add to the bag with KNO3 and mix.

Would these supplies work?

charcoal

sulfer, 90% pure

KNO3 (same as before)

Edited by flamingsquirrel, 25 May 2008 - 07:42 PM.

[BrightStar]

Your starting point is here:

http://www.musketeer...er/history.html

[Asteroid]

Just a pointer, don't take anything on totse.com seriously, a lot of that is seriously dangerous, not far from techniques in texts like "the anarchists cookbook". I would definately say start with smoke mixes then move onto black powder. Smoke devices are good fun for beginners, and aside from that, they will help you appreciate the power that even simple things have. They are also good for getting into good saftey habits!

[mike_smith919]

Just a pointer, don't take anything on totse.com seriously, a lot of that is seriously dangerous, not far from techniques in texts like "the anarchists cookbook".

I would have to agree, makes me think of the JRC, very irresponsable and likely to cause serious injury or death if some of those are copied.

Mike.

[Arthur Brown]

Attempts at flash are a poor start for pyro making. -Far too dangerous.

The USA has a legal pyro hobby industry so buy the books! they are retail in the USA. Perigrine - intro to practical pyrotechnics is useful as is COPAE by Davis both is the $20 - 50 range Both good well researched accurate reading. Research for a term then consider making something simple with simple ingredients.

ten sorts of charcoal in various meshes in different proportions should shoe you lots of effects from bangs to candles to mines, and be worthy of a small research project.

Making flash means making bangs that will attract the wrong attention to your hobby and may taint you forever.

[YT2095]

LOL, I stopped reading his post as soon as I came across "TOTSE"

[MDH]

Drop the attitude, YT -- There's no reason for that.

Flamingsquirrel, although typically I would discourage you from making a bang and encourage you to move onto stuff which relies on a person's attention instead of forcing people's attention to it (not saying you intended that but that's basically what is gonna happen) if you really have your mind set on making a bang, there are several ways you can make a "bang" much more safely.

If you really put two and two together -- if you use explosives that propel objects capable of shrapnel (Basically, anything that isn't very flexible or malleable by nature) then you are increasing the likeliness of hurting yourself.

So, start safe, and start small. Roll a little paper tube, crimp one end, mask-tape that end in place, put a tiny bit of black powder in the tube, insert a fuse, then crimp that end shut and tape it as well. This will make a stupendous firecracker.

Otherwise if you're interested in moving on to more beautiful effects...

mix together 6 Potassium Nitrate, 3 Charcoal and 1 Sulfur, and add 2-4 grams of aluminum, then roll your own paper tube, and press the powder inside (... ramming with metal powders can be risky...) then you can make a fountain or spray of silver sparks that lasts a very long time. That's just the beginning of it all. As a note you may want to consider buying boric acid a store at some point, it'll stop unwanted reactions from the aluminum and the nitrates.

I can't help but laugh though, this kid is a true pioneer

Edited by MDH, 26 May 2008 - 10:00 AM.

[YT2095]

Drop the attitude, YT -- There's no reason for that.

not a chance old pal! and there`s very good reasons for it.
unless you`re an Advocate of such places and technical resources such as those in the anarchist crap book?

[MDH]

Get out of your white tower YT. You are destroying a straw man. I never said anything about believing in the anarchist cookbook or totse, and it does not benifit you resorting to such silly and rediculous extremes to say that I did.

First of all, considering that this kid obviously heard of flash powder somewhere, and went out of his way to find out more about it, and in retrospect had a bang in mind, it is inevitable that in this fascinating piece of technology we all refer to as the internet that he is indeed going to stumble upon many of these sites, which claim to provide him with appropriate information.

Now, considering this fact, why would we go about telling him that he is a kewl and has a plan in mind to make a b**b when it is obvious that he is simply relying upon information he has found to achieve what he wants to? You are expecting him to come into a world full of messy information about pyrotechnics wearing a graduation hat.

That is rediculous.

-MDH

[MMMMMM Pyro]

Hi,

To be frank with you- stick to Black powder for now.

I mean no offence here whatsoever but it is rather obvious that you are simply unaware as to the dangers of Flash Powders (KNO3/Al is not entirely stable for example. Boric Acid should be added to allow for any ammonium radicals formed...)

Do some reading before you post! All of the information that you require is blatantly displayed in front of you across these boards. I shall grant that the Internet is a proverbial mine-field of crap information, however owing to good fortune, you have found this place- a safe haven of good Pyrotechnic information. READ and LEARN!

You are also in the United States- considering the less than fantastic political stability over there you may wish to re think making thinks that go boom. A MUCH better alternative is to compare the burning speeds of different charcoals in black powder. Also the burning speeds of Black Powder made by the CIA method (look it up) and Black powder produced by Ball Milling. I would not recommend the pestle and mortar idea because to be frank if it sparks etc... that's not gonna be pretty.

So please heed the advice given by many, and ignore the attitues some have displayed- its nothing personal, just the many voices of painful and sometimes trajic accidents.

I wish you the best- this is an amazing Hobby to be a part of, just stay safe!

Regards,

[Asteroid]

Perhaps you would also anjoy air cannons. They are very easy, extremely safe providing you follow basic saftey instructions. Re-useable, inexpensive, easily related to physics the list goes on.
Have a look at this GPS targeted cannon. A guy built it for his senior scince fair, and it's a fantastic piece of engineering, you could do a similar thing on whatever scale you like.
It's another very enjoyable hobby, and has more of a physics slant than pyrotechnics (more chemistry I'm sure you'll agree). Even though neither is totally relevant to junior science curriculums, they are both great for creating an interest in the subjects and a desire to learn.