28 replies to this topic

[nimrodmr4a]

I realy want to get into this fireworks hobby, but im awful confused by the laws . Ive made calls to the police explosives department, council licensing department etc. And they have all said the same thing 'Even under the MSER regulations exclusion, it is still illegal to produce any explosive without a license, including model rocket fuel, even if its for experimentation purposes, and not stored, and if i were caught, i would be arrested under the firearms act 1890 something' Is this right, or are they talking bulls***. I cant seem to find anything that is definate as to what i want to do, which is make model rocket motors (KNO3 + sugar) with a small ( 0.3g) BP ejection charge, and to occasionally make a small fountain etc . I have a brick store area in which to store any materials, and a seperate empty shed, which would be my 'Lab'. I just cant work out what is right/wrong, and i dont want to be arrested for a hobby, its not fair

[digger]

I realy want to get into this fireworks hobby, but im awful confused by the laws . Ive made calls to the police explosives department, council licensing department etc. And they have all said the same thing 'Even under the MSER regulations exclusion, it is still illegal to produce any explosive without a license, including model rocket fuel, even if its for experimentation purposes, and not stored, and if i were caught, i would be arrested under the firearms act 1890 something' Is this right, or are they talking bulls***. I cant seem to find anything that is definate as to what i want to do, which is make model rocket motors (KNO3 + sugar) with a small ( 0.3g) BP ejection charge, and to occasionally make a small fountain etc . I have a brick store area in which to store any materials, and a seperate empty shed, which would be my 'Lab'. I just cant work out what is right/wrong, and i dont want to be arrested for a hobby, its not fair

There have been in depth discussions on this topic on the forum. It is worth doing a search to see what you can find.

I would suggest that you get a copy of the MSER regs (it is downloadable from the HSE website, there are links to it from here on some threads). Then read it, read it some more, put it down and then read it again.

I believe the upshot of it all is that you can make no more than 100g of a composition for experimental purposes only. The packing of the composition into a tube to make a device would appear to be OK from reading the regs, however the HSE/Police would probably try and prosecute you if they found you with a tube packed with a home made composition.

I think that the only way to make devices at home would be to get licenced, which will require a fair bit of reading, research, talking to people, available space and ultimately a reasonable chunk of cash to get the relevant facilities and pay for ongoing licencing/insurance costs.

The other option of course will be to use the UKPS licenced facility when it finally gets up and running.

D

Edited by digger, 10 July 2008 - 06:05 PM.

[nimrodmr4a]

Cheers digger. I have read all that i can find on the forum, and have read the MSER regs front to back about 5 times, in order to try and find a clause which will prove usefull. I had the same belief as you, that i could make 100g (but not legaly put it into a tube with fuse), but the police tryed to say that i couldn't make anything without a license. I dont have the spare time/money to get fully licensed, so im hoping that everything comes up roses with these licensed sites

[digger]

Cheers digger. I have read all that i can find on the forum, and have read the MSER regs front to back about 5 times, in order to try and find a clause which will prove usefull. I had the same belief as you, that i could make 100g (but not legaly put it into a tube with fuse), but the police tryed to say that i couldn't make anything without a license. I dont have the spare time/money to get fully licensed, so im hoping that everything comes up roses with these licensed sites

The problem with just phoning the police is that unless you spoke to an experienced explosive officer they probably don't understand the intricacies of the the legislation. To be fair it is probably a bit of a fringe piece of law even for an explosives officer who is used to dealing with shotgun licences and COER certs for shooters powders. It is just easier for them to tell you it is all illegal don't do it so they are definitely on the right side of the law.

So the best thing for you to do is either do nothing or to stay within the law and understand the details yourself so that if you find yourself in the position where you need to explain yourself you can. It may give you a few uncomfortable moments but you will be OK unless there is other evidence to suggest that you have some extreme beliefs and want to harm the state/someone in some way, in which case you are bu**ered.

EDITED FOR POOR READING OF THE FIRST POST

Edited by digger, 10 July 2008 - 08:02 PM.

[crystal palace fireworks]

There have been in depth discussions on this topic on the forum. It is worth doing a search to see what you can find.

I would suggest that you get a copy of the MSER regs (it is downloadable from the HSE website, there are links to it from here on some threads). Then read it, read it some more, put it down and then read it again.

I believe the upshot of it all is that you can make no more than 100g of a composition for experimental purposes only. The packing of the composition into a tube to make a device would appear to be OK from reading the regs, however the HSE/Police would probably try and prosecute you if they found you with a tube packed with a home made composition.

I think that the only way to make devices at home would be to get licenced, which will require a fair bit of reading, research, talking to people, available space and ultimately a reasonable chunk of cash to get the relevant facilities and pay for ongoing licencing/insurance costs.

The other option of course will be to use the UKPS licenced facility when it finally gets up and running.

D

Im not entirely sure myself, but I believe you can store no more than 10kg of black powder + 5kg of other composites without licensing according to MSER regs as I read it..........of course you need to adhere to storage quantities (no more than 550grams of BP in any one thin cased plastic bottle or cardboard box, this is then inserted in a wooden box made of 18mm plywood etc in which each compartment is seperated by 6mm ply sections, and fitted with brass fittings/lock etc for storage purposes).......you also need to store other compositions seperately in different rooms in your shed or building.

Manufacturing small quantites of explosives in your shed/outbuilding for personal hobby use is difficult to define in terms of guidelines laws as I see it, although I believe Digger is right (there are quantity limits for compositions in any one firework, but Im not entirely clear on this, or what they are).

I would write (not phone) and ask for a written reply to your questions to:-

`Evan Bale` HM Principle Inspector (explosives)
1.2 Redgrave Court
Merton Road
Bootle
L20 7HS

Tell him what you want to do and how you are going make your comps, and give him the measurements of your building/shed, the type of equipment/tools your going to use etc, plus how you want clad the inside of the outbuilding to reduce sparking accidents etc.

If you get a written reply in your favour from the explosives directorate, please keep this with you at all times and get it photocopied if the police or HSE pay a visit! (you then have some evidence/permission or credence to your hobby).

Also, (if you would be so kind) it would help us other pyro`s if you could post your findings on this forum in due course.

Keith

[digger]

Im not entirely sure myself, but I believe you can store no more than 10kg of black powder + 5kg of other composites without licensing according to MSER regs as I read it..........of course you need to adhere to storage quantities (no more than 550grams of BP in any one thin cased plastic bottle or cardboard box, this is then inserted in a wooden box made of 18mm plywood etc in which each compartment is seperated by 6mm ply sections, and fitted with brass fittings/lock etc for storage purposes).......you also need to store other compositions seperately in different rooms in your shed or building.

Manufacturing small quantites of explosives in your shed/outbuilding for personal hobby use is difficult to define in terms of guidelines laws as I see it, although I believe Digger is right (there are quantity limits for compositions in any one firework, but Im not entirely clear on this, or what they are).

I would write (not phone) and ask for a written reply to your questions to:-

`Evan Bale` HM Principle Inspector (explosives)
1.2 Redgrave Court
Merton Road
Bootle
L20 7HS

Tell him what you want to do and how you are going make your comps, and give him the measurements of your building/shed, the type of equipment/tools your going to use etc, plus how you want clad the inside of the outbuilding to reduce sparking accidents etc.

If you get a written reply in your favour from the explosives directorate, please keep this with you at all times and get it photocopied if the police or HSE pay a visit! (you then have some evidence/permission or credence to your hobby).

Also, (if you would be so kind) it would help us other pyro`s if you could post your findings on this forum in due course.

Keith

The limit is 100g and the packing of it into a tube (although the regs do not appear to prohibit it) is considered illegal and apparently the HSE are prepared to take action on this. Whether that is just saber rattling who knows but I would not like to find out the hard way.

Yes there are exemptions for shooters powders etc, unfortunately there is a but. You will need a COER certificate to buy it (no home made powder allowed as it does not have a UN number), to get this you will have to have a reason for obtaining it and making fireworks is not a valid reason unless you also have a MSER manufacturing licence. So if you want to play with shooters powders you will need to join up with a local reenactment society and play with cannons, muskets or even tanks and simulated shell hits.

So support the society and become a paid member. The more of us there is then we will be able start lobbying for similar exemptions that the rocket and reenactment boys enjoy

D

Edited by digger, 10 July 2008 - 07:26 PM.

[maxman]

This is an interesting subject, so thought I'd just throw in some thoughts.

I'm sure everyone on this forum means no harm or danger to anyone themselves included or any property.

If you make 100g or less of star comp or BP and burn a loose pile on the floor outside not in the view of the neighbours who's going to know? unless you've been trying to order chems from lab suppliers and they've been suspicious and passed your details to the police (it's happened) Don't make any bangs in your house or garden! you're probably ok.

Lets say you have a small amount of chems and you tell a friend or a neighbour / relative see's, if they get nervy and tell the police you'll get raided! The police will turn up and search the place and when they find pots of chems that they don't know what they are (its not their job to know or decide) they'll call in people that do know (b**b disposal) . Then to be on the safe side, they will evacuate your street and the newspaper will turn up with the local news. Even if you've done nothing wrong or Illegal this is what will happen.

They decide you're OK and believe your story about experimenting with comps (even though no mixtures are found ) you're questioned and let go (maybe) Allot of harm has already been done to you, your family . your reputation , career future life. Its not fair but that's the way it is.

I don't know where anyone gets the idea that any comp in a tube could be OK coz it isn't. That constitutes manufacture of a device!

Don't mess about with flash powder, chlorates , large quantity of comp, be discrete ,tell only those you can trust absolutely, don't burn the house down, don't make pops and bangs round the garden, learn as much as you can to stay safe and enjoy

Sorry to sound all doom and gloom. On the other hand without people on this site willing to take a risk who would be able to carry on this dying art in this country? No one just decides to start up a firework factory just like that! We're all here because we love the art. I truly believe that if manufacture is to become a reality again in this country then it will be the folk of this excellent society that will be at the helm!

Now where did I put my bottle of wine?

[digger]

This is an interesting subject, so thought I'd just throw in some thoughts.

I'm sure everyone on this forum means no harm or danger to anyone themselves included or any property.

If you make 100g or less of star comp or BP and burn a loose pile on the floor outside not in the view of the neighbours who's going to know? unless you've been trying to order chems from lab suppliers and they've been suspicious and passed your details to the police (it's happened) Don't make any bangs in your house or garden! you're probably ok.

Lets say you have a small amount of chems and you tell a friend or a neighbour / relative see's, if they get nervy and tell the police you'll get raided! The police will turn up and search the place and when they find pots of chems that they don't know what they are (its not their job to know or decide) they'll call in people that do know (b**b disposal) . Then to be on the safe side, they will evacuate your street and the newspaper will turn up with the local news. Even if you've done nothing wrong or Illegal this is what will happen.

They decide you're OK and believe your story about experimenting with comps (even though no mixtures are found ) you're questioned and let go (maybe) Allot of harm has already been done to you, your family . your reputation , career future life. Its not fair but that's the way it is.

I don't know where anyone gets the idea that any comp in a tube could be OK coz it isn't. That constitutes manufacture of a device!

Don't mess about with flash powder, chlorates , large quantity of comp, be discrete ,tell only those you can trust absolutely, don't burn the house down, don't make pops and bangs round the garden, learn as much as you can to stay safe and enjoy

Sorry to sound all doom and gloom. On the other hand without people on this site willing to take a risk who would be able to carry on this dying art in this country? No one just decides to start up a firework factory just like that! We're all here because we love the art. I truly believe that if manufacture is to become a reality again in this country then it will be the folk of this excellent society that will be at the helm!

Now where did I put my bottle of wine?

Hear hear. Some excelent points.

Lets hope that at least some of us manage to get legal and preserve the art.

It would be nice to see a small scale specialist industry build up once more in this country. Lets face it the days of making things abroad cheaply and then cheaply transporting them to the UK may be coming to an end with the beginning of the end of cheap oil.

So lets see what the next few years bring.

mmm bottle of wine that sounds like a good idea.

[BrightStar]

It is unfortunate that in the UK, unlike the US, there's no license exemption for non-commercial manufacture of fireworks. MSER does in theory offer the 100g exemption for testing compositions but it's of limited use.

In practise, the police have indicated to the UKPS that they have no interest in prosecuting people for making and testing small rocket motors or 100g quantities of BP if done far away from others. The HSE have little interest in taking action if there is no public safety risk. I very much doubt though that either would agree this in writing as ultimately it is still illegal.

Making fireworks in a house or suburban garage could certainly lead to trouble. Blowing the doors off is a sure way to get the neighbours attention.

Now, someone mentioned wine...

Edited by BrightStar, 10 July 2008 - 10:14 PM.

[crystal palace fireworks]

This is the way I look at it, rightly or wrongly!

I don`t see why future legislation can`t be followed along the same lines as current legislation for certain size small residential sheds/garages in gardens for the very small production for one`s hobby (not for resale).............providing rules are written that you are not allowed to launch rockets or mortars or bangs etc in your garden (live testing only allowed at UKPS sites, so as not to disturb others = quite rightly).

I would even go as far as bringing in rules to transport of small quantities of pyro`s via a small trailer with a weakened roof for safety reasons!

I live in a terraced house, my garden is about 80 ft long and backs on to empty land........why can`t I have a shed there to carry on my hobby? (away from the house), why can`t legislation rule that I must dig/construct a earth bank on three sides to protect other properties if an accident did happen? (along the lines of a anderson shelter)...........is this not logical or practical?

Question: - who actually proposed this current legislation? is this the recommendations of the BPA? or HSE? or the Explosives Directorate themselves? or some ill informed planning office association?

What gets me is..............its ok for petrol companies to store thousands of gallons of fuel in underground tanks (petrol stations) next to residential properties, but us... oh no were much too dangerous!

What a freaking country this is.............David Icke we salute you!

[BrightStar]

I don`t see why future legislation can`t be followed along the same lines as current legislation for certain size small residential sheds/garages in gardens for the very small production for one`s hobby (not for resale)........

I agree and hope we can make it happen as the UKPS gains more members. The first step though is to set up a small scale amateur factory to show that it can be done, hence all the hard work by the committee to obtain the license for Faldingworth.

Getting 'more legal' through Cat 4 training, coer certs, registered stores etc. is all possible at reasonable cost and will hopefully keep some of us out of trouble in the meantime...

Edited by BrightStar, 11 July 2008 - 01:42 AM.

[pyrotechnist]

When speaking to an HSE explosive inspectorate not so long ago she and some others informed me that you could use the 100g exemption rule to build small devices as long as the NET weight never exceeded 100g and even better if it didn't come to 100g at all. She stated that you could build 1 - several pyrotechnical devices in one shed as long as the total NET weight of each device added never exceeded 100g and also assemble and disassemble or fuse devices in up to 10kg at a time. Once the devices were built you had to store them in a registered store (if exceeding 5kg or 10kg black powder) before building anymore devices and also hold a COER acquire and keep to manufacture the compositions and store them. But you cannot use these fireworks at all in displays or sell them. They can only be used for private experimentation purposes only and fired in situ and not transported.

I personally think 5kg of fireworks and 10kg of black powder is perfectly fine for most people and to be honest 10kg of black powder is way to much for an enthusiast to store so the laws aren't as bad as you may think. 100g of composition for me is A LOT and can make one nice or several nice devices if used properly.

Another note I was given is to make sure your fireworks are properly labeled and the quantities and materials stored are logged in a book encase an accident happens. For this I have set up 2 notepads keeping track of chemicals, compositions and finished devices and plan to make a series of labels for each device I make. Oh.. and the main note given to me by fire service explosive department is not to make it obvious you are storing explosives because it attracts unwanted attention.

[digger]

When speaking to an HSE explosive inspectorate not so long ago she and some others informed me that you could use the 100g exemption rule to build small devices as long as the NET weight never exceeded 100g and even better if it didn't come to 100g at all. She stated that you could build 1 - several pyrotechnical devices in one shed as long as the total NET weight of each device added never exceeded 100g and also assemble and disassemble or fuse devices in up to 10kg at a time. Once the devices were built you had to store them in a registered store (if exceeding 5kg or 10kg black powder) before building anymore devices and also hold a COER acquire and keep to manufacture the compositions and store them. But you cannot use these fireworks at all in displays or sell them. They can only be used for private experimentation purposes only and fired in situ and not transported.

I personally think 5kg of fireworks and 10kg of black powder is perfectly fine for most people and to be honest 10kg of black powder is way to much for an enthusiast to store so the laws aren't as bad as you may think. 100g of composition for me is A LOT and can make one nice or several nice devices if used properly.

Another note I was given is to make sure your fireworks are properly labeled and the quantities and materials stored are logged in a book encase an accident happens. For this I have set up 2 notepads keeping track of chemicals, compositions and finished devices and plan to make a series of labels for each device I make. Oh.. and the main note given to me by fire service explosive department is not to make it obvious you are storing explosives because it attracts unwanted attention.

Interesting. Could you clarify a few points please.

As far as I was aware the rules are applied in the following cases:-

1) The storage of no more than 10Kg of black powder or 5kg of shooters powder (Regulation 10 paragraph 1 subsection 2b). This has to be commercial powder which may be used for the manufacture of small arms ammunition not exceeding 2Kg at any one time (Regulation 9 subsection 2b) and few others relation to reenactment societies etc.

2) A manufacturing licence is not required for the preparation, assembly and fusing of fireworks, in quantities of no more than 10Kg at a time, at a site in relation to which a person holds a licence or registration for the storage of explosives, for the purpose of a firework display to be put on by that person (reg 9 subsection 2e). This rule again only applies to cat 4 fireworks and not home made devices, hence to get to this point you will need a store and at least insurance and probably be a registered business (division A store is seen to be the minimum requirement for acquiring cat 4).

3) The manufacture of explosives for the purpose of laboratory analysis, testing, demonstration or experimentation (but not for practical use or sale) where the total quantity of explosives being manufactured at AT ANY TIME does not exceed 100grams, but nothing in this sub paragraph shall be taken as authorising any acquisition or keeping of explosives for which an explosives certificate is required by virtue of regulation 7 of these regulations, without such a certificate. (regulation 9 subsection 2a)

Plus a few more that are less relevant about on site mixing of ANFO etc.

So the regs explicitly prohibit the manufacture and storage of any more than 100grams of composition without a manufacturing licence as far as I can see (thats what the HSE told me when I spoke to them). I was certain that the 10kg rules only apply to commercially produced devices for modification purposes. If you know any different and have it in writing I would love to know more and have a copy of the letter as it will stop me from having to apply for a manufacturing licence.

EDIT FOR update of rule 3 (not for added)

Edited by digger, 11 July 2008 - 07:20 PM.

[Arthur Brown]

Remember it's an explosive device unless and until it has been classified as a firework! You should have COER acquire and Keep permissions to get and store explosives. Also the store should be appropriate for the class and quantity of product, But until it has been classified.......

[pyrotechnist]

I will contact her again and try get her to write it down as I spoke over the phone with her, a lengthy 2 hour conversation .

1) This exemption doesn't state commercial BP it just states BP in general and to what I was told also meant home made black powder made via a person who holds a COER certificate and is less than or equal to 100g. The BP can be stored if you have an acquire and keep COER.

2) This exemption doesn't state CAT 4 fireworks but then neither does it state any hazard of fireworks so could it apply to any hazard type? this is the problem who knows the law doesn't purely specify it and this is what she said when I asked her. So I assume you can also assemble, disassemble and fuse CAT 1, 2 and 3 also because it doesn't really state otherwise. It may say for display purposes but then again you can make displays with CAT 3 also.

3) The explosive inspectorate told me I could make any composition as long as its NET weight didn't exceed 100g and with clarification from some of her other colleagues stated these could be put into devices as long as the total devices NET weight didn't go over 100g in the same building. Again the law doesn't state that you cannot make devices from these experimental compositions but just states you can make 100g of explosives. So since it doesn't specify, what exactly can we and can we not make? again who knows. Also regulation 9, paragraph 2, sub-paragraph. (a) basically says we need a COER certificate to manufacture, acquire and store the composition if it is part of the Control of Explosives Regulations, "but nothing in this sub-paragraph shall be taken as authorising any acquisition or keeping of explosives for which an explosives certificate is required by virtue of regulation 7 of those Regulations, without such a certificate;".

On site mixing licenses are useless for us pyros as it only applies to ammonium nitrate mixing for on the day use. I do not see anywhere were it states we CANNOT manufacture fireworks under 100g but then one may argue it doesn't say you can either but then this is were the solution to that argument lies... no one knows. I am by all means not an expert on the MSER but have read over it many times and also got a printed copy. What I have said above is gathered from my experience in reading MSER and from those who I spoke to from HSE, Fire Service and police.

Edited by pyrotechnist, 11 July 2008 - 07:54 PM.