13 replies to this topic

[pyroduck7]

well i want to make some nitrocellouce, with sulphuric acid ( to make nitric acid) and sulphuric acid is verry usefull, does anyone inm the uk know where i could get it? many thanks in advance

[digger]

well i want to make some nitrocellouce, with sulphuric acid ( to make nitric acid) and sulphuric acid is verry usefull, does anyone inm the uk know where i could get it? many thanks in advance

I understand why you want to make NC. I assume that you need it as a binder, in which case you may as well just buy NC lacquer which is readily available with a bit of searching. The NC reaction uses some pretty nasty chems as you know and the yield will be low in the home lab so it turns out to be an expensive way to make NC lacquer.

If you want to make NC for other reasons then it is outside the scope of these forums as HE is frowned upon.

From a purely chemistry point of view conc sulphuric is available to the experimenter in the UK, but there is no point making the nitric acid as it is available from the same sources. There are plenty of lab suppliers out there that will supply you with the chems if you have a good reason for having them.

Edited by digger, 16 July 2008 - 05:51 PM.

[Arthur Brown]

There is no legal retail supply of H2SO4 especially in the concentrations that you need for nitrating cellulose. There will be a laboratory chemical supplier in your area they will stock it BUT asking for it WILL invite questions of the sort that you (and we) do NOT want.

If you post lots of good posts and threads people will get to know you and then sources may open to you! Trying to get nitrating acids supplied without good reason will get men in suits, men in uniforms and others looking at your doings.

[digger]

There is no legal retail supply of H2SO4 especially in the concentrations that you need for nitrating cellulose. There will be a laboratory chemical supplier in your area they will stock it BUT asking for it WILL invite questions of the sort that you (and we) do NOT want.

If you post lots of good posts and threads people will get to know you and then sources may open to you! Trying to get nitrating acids supplied without good reason will get men in suits, men in uniforms and others looking at your doings.

Very true, however there are a number of lab suppliers that will be happy to supply it with only cursory questions to what you are using it for especially when they are part of a larger order which shows the need for the acids for obvious chemistry.

But still there is no need for those acids in this hobby in the strengths required for nitration full stop.

[Arthur Brown]

Strong H2SO4 is available easily! However you will need to show to the supply house that you are competent, and very likely they will only supply to businesses with a clear need.

If you cannot offer your supply house evidence of business need and competence then you will have to look off this forum for other methods and sources. This www place does NOT do high explosives in any form, and does not advocate manufacture of HEs in any way or for any purpose. Nitrating things is getting way off topic for this forum.

[YT2095]

there really are Much cheaper ways of obtaining N.C (Collodion), shops that deal with model aircraft sell something called "Dope" or you can make your own by dissolving a ping-pong ball in acetone yes a single ping-pong ball will make quite a bit of the stuff and it also has a reasonably pleasant camphor smell to it as well.

I`v used it in the past for water-proofing matches for use in camping, and a single PP ball will make enough to do about 10,000 mathches!

[Bonny]

[quote name='YT2095' date='Jul 17 2008, 10:12 AM' post='46512']
there really are Much cheaper ways of obtaining N.C (Collodion), shops that deal with model aircraft sell something called "Dope" or you can make your own by dissolving a ping-pong ball in acetone yes a single ping-pong ball will make quite a bit of the stuff and it also has a reasonably pleasant camphor smell to it as well.

Is that the minty/"vicks vapour rub" smell? My dragon eggs smell like that and are made with ping pong ball NC.

[pyrotrev]

Another reason for not making your own NC is that it's a real pain to get all the acid out of it post nitration, and if you don't it gradually goes off.

[marble]

Not really, wash with plenty of water and dunk in bi-carb solution, repeat until it returns a neutral pH.

[YT2095]

Not really, wash with plenty of water and dunk in bi-carb solution, repeat until it returns a neutral pH.

although that`s fine for something made to be tested right away, it`s not ideal for anything meant to be stored.
there is a series of special treatments that`s needed to produce something of that purity (beyond the capability of most amateur set-ups).
you can Still have acid locked into the material itself, after all, NC IS a plastic and perfectly capable of trapping pockets of acid and protecting it from any base you care too wash it in.

Bonny, yeah that minty smell

[marble]

I would never advocate storing it dry, I imagine that problem would be minimized by dissolving the NC into acetone?

[Mumbles]

It is actually more likely to react in a wet or dissolved state in my experience. Various samples I have, both commercial and home produced, have all turned yellow more rapidly in wet or dissolved states. It really takes far more excessive washing and neutralizing than might seem obvious. I've worked in commercial pyrotechnic outfits where "small" batches of very pure nitrocellulose were made for some R&D purposes. By small, I mean around a kilo at a time. I'll tell you, 1 kilo is an entirely different animal than 5g. Completely different procedure, safety issues, and work up. The amount that would be useful to the amateur pyrotechnic experimenter I could in no sound mind ever suggest making as it certainly takes some chemistry skill to make a decent sized batch.

[bigtonyicu]

Not really, wash with plenty of water and dunk in bi-carb solution, repeat until it returns a neutral pH.

I would never advocate storing it dry, I imagine that problem would be minimized by dissolving the NC into acetone?

(Sorry for sounding mad but I am, and it needs to be said)



Ok... I've been biting my lips, but I can't anymore, someone will get hurt if he tries the above mentioned things

Marble, have you ever made any???

I've made several pound of it NC


Take my word dissolving it will not stabilize it nor will washing it with Carbonate. The advise you're giving/asking about (you make statements but end them with question marks... what's that about???) is dangerous the acids aren't on the surface. They are imbedded in the NC so treating them will not remove all acids. There's only one procedure that will fully neutralize any traces of acid and I can't imagine anyone doing it at home (Dissolve, neutralize then re solidify). Using the above mentioned technique could result in spontaneous ignition if mixed with any number of other chemical AKA DON’T DO IT!!!



This forum is not for HE so why is this conversation going on in the first place. Could an admin please lock this up before someone gets hurt.

[portfire]

This forum is not for HE so why is this conversation going on in the first place. Could an admin please lock this up before someone gets hurt.

Indeed! This is bordering (if not) HE, as mentioned NC lacquer is quite easy to obtain. Model shops, even guitar shops. Search the forum and you will find!!