41 replies to this topic

[Creepin_pyro]

I think there is some confusion about terminology happening here.

'Concussion powder' is used as a theatric effect, at ground level, in concussion mortars - this is not an arial effect.

Occasionally display companies might use concussion mortars and the like for ground level stuff, but it's not standard practise - salutes rigged to a frame do essentially the same job and eliminate the very real dangers of mixing live composition on site..

The barrage of salutes you describe were very likely just standard Titanium salutes, in the <3"> range.

"If I'm not mistaken, as long as it is not compressed or hit, then flash is safe to handle." Unfortunately, this is not the case.

EDIT: What Mortartube said! I agree wholeheartedly, I'd go for a deep blue over a massive explosion any day. Flash deserves alot of respect, personally I'm sh1t scared of the stuff!

Edited by Creepin_pyro, 14 August 2008 - 04:27 PM.

[d3v]

I googled titanium salutes and I found this video and while they look like them, they sound very weak in that video compared to real life. I don't know if it's just the audio compression, though.

Like I said they were activating car alarms and giving off impressive shock waves that hit your chest hard.

"If I'm not mistaken, as long as it is not compressed or hit, then flash is safe to handle." Unfortunately, this is not the case.

Really? Please elaborate. I thought perch-based flash is safe as long as you follow those two simple rules.

[GZ22]

Think again my friend. See the signature in my post? Please heed it. Read these too:

http://www.z11pyro.com/pdrsafe.html

http://www.skylighte...ymanualofca.htm

"...The most disturbing aspect was all the cautions he gave me. He told me they lose more people each year from flash powder accidents than anything else. He asked if I was married or had kids... He told me of someone that wrote a paper on the safe handling of flash powder, sold videos to the industry on how to handle it safely. Then a few years ago he blew himself up with it. I decided I would make flash powder my last resort."

Tom Perigrin wrote:

"Flash powder can be set off by amazingly small amounts of static...
I forget the exact number, but I believe 20 microjoules is about right.
That much will ignite flash for sure. Last time I saw flash devices
being tested for static sensitivity, the energies were in the order of
1 to 10 microjoules. The most sensitive flash ignited about 80 % sure
with the lowest available energy. Such flash was made of Ecka 5413
(i.e. "dark German") aluminium. 5413-flash is also the most powerful
and burns the fastest.

It coarse enough aluminium is used, the flash can take even half a
joule sparks. However, then the "flash powder" will no longer explode
anyway, but only burn like thermite.

I'd have to think hard before deciding if I'd rather mix and use 1 pound of
flash, or swim acrosst an aligator infested lake."

Edited by GZ22, 14 August 2008 - 10:11 PM.

[d3v]

Thanks G7 but I thought the risk of static ignition was pretty much exclusive only to sulpher/chlorate based flash comps and not perchorlate ones???

p.s I read the link and the only rule I break is handling the stuff on a carpet. Again though, is perch flash okay to handle while standing on a carpet?

Edited by d3v, 14 August 2008 - 10:39 PM.

[cooperman435]

I think one of the things your getting confused with is because of your lack of apreciation of the danger and power of flash D3v.

Concussion powder IS flash, its named concussion powder as its used in concussion pots as a stage effect. As far as Im aware its flame front or products of combustion radiate at super sonic speed. Its just a case of a product being named for its intended use, Sodium bicarbonate - Baking soda etc

If you cannot immediatly see why anyone using it would desire for it to be stored and transported as seperate components and only mixed when apsolutely neccecery on site then you definately should not be considering the making of it at all!

Its not safe. no more needs to be said but I will for the sake of your hearing, Dont mix it diaper it, any friction can in the right circumstances ignite it ITS JUST NOT SAFE STUFF

think that 10g of bp igniting close to you will probably result in little more than a possible burn whereas 10g of flash is a much more serious occourance and can easilly result in loss of fingers, limbs oe worse.

[Arthur Brown]

Flash is the most brissant powder available without COER and HE approvals.

Maroons are a paper container with a weighed amount of flash and burst with a deep bang sound and should be used in a bo mb tank in theatre to catch all the flying paper bits.

Theatrical concussions are much more robustly contained and then spiked with string and glue. These when used in a concussion pot make a much louder and higher sounding bang. A concussion pot appears to be a 100mm DIA block of steel with a 30mm bore axially. This offers added confinement for the reaction and limits the shrapnel to the open direction.


In theatre in the UK on site manufacture ie mixing binaries is severely frowned upon. There are lots of suppliers of approved cat1 devices for theatre so DIY is un necessary and unless you fully understand MSER it may count as illegal manufacture.

[d3v]

It just all seems so unlikely to happen. I see warnings of accidental ignition of flash akin to those of not speeding to fast in your car or not drinking/smoking. In other words the risks are basically non-existent. Unless you can show me a documented case of flash going off by static in a normal non-test environment then I will continue to find it very hard to believe. I have been mixing and packing flash on a carpet for quite some years now and dare I say it, compressed flash quite hard when I first started and I've never had an accident with it.

Please note I am only referring to perch-flash and not chlorate/sulpher.

[Mortartube]

I am sorry to sound blunt here but you are really doing yourself no favours. You have been given advice by some very experienced people here. Flash has been tested by military organisations and private companies and been proven to be a very dangerous product if misused.


If you'd ever seen the powder burn of a few grammes of waste flash at Standard fireworks (when it was a proper company and not a Chinese owned importer), you would shake every time you got near the stuff.

There are extreme dangers involved in using it and these can be well managed by following proper procedures, BUT, the margin of the safest possible use is a narrow one.

You can play Russian roulette with a gun and get away for it for so long before you have the fatal shot, if you misuse flash it is the same.

I believe that Ken & Bonnie Kosanke have done extensive testing on the dangers of flash (I stand to be corrected here) and their results prove how dangerous this stuff is.

Treat flash and also whistle mix in the same way. If it was a bottle of nitro glycerin you'd handle it VERY carefully. Think of flash and whistle in the same category and you should stay alive long enough to enjoy it.

I admire your curiosity, but PLEASE listen to some VERY, VERY experienced people. It might just save your life.

[d3v]

even 70/30 perchorlate flash??

[Mortartube]

Absolutely every type of flash with no exceptions. Whistle mix also.

Edited by Mortartube, 15 August 2008 - 12:40 PM.

[d3v]

Absolutely every type of flash with no exceptions. Whistle mix also.

Ok so how do firework companies loose workers to flash if they are following all the safety rules correctly?
I really don't get it.

[portfire]

Ok so how do firework companies loose workers to flash if they are following all the safety rules correctly?
I really don't get it.

You've just answered your own question......Thats how dangerous It is

[Mortartube]

Flash is generally taken into the sheds in small quantities. When more is required, it is either made there and then or taken from a specialist magazine.

The items made with flash should be cleared from the room to the magazines at regular intervals so not much stock builds up in the process room.

You NEVER make items with flash in thundery weather and factory rules dictate that you must evacuate the process room when the thunderstorm is within a specified distance (that's for everything not just flash).

Process rooms that deal with flash are usually a long way from the other buildings and workers using it often work alone.

Excess waste flash is often burnt off by covering it in paraffin or similar and burning it in a designated area. This usually allows it to burn slowly although I have heard of it burning Fast even with this precaution.

Certain mixtures such as some tracer bullet mixes, even require workers to wear non synthetic clothing including underwear. I know of a few mixtures (again tracer bullet mix) that are so sensitive that they are mixed with the bristles of a camel hair brush, but such mixtures are outside of the scope of this group.

I know of one factory that stored the flash in a screw top container but instead of using the screw top lid, he used some kraft paper held in place with a rubber band to preclude the possibility of flash going off when the lid is screwed on.

Every precaution is taken to minimise handling and mixing. It is wise to have an anti static wrist band fixed to an earthed point when handling flash. The type of wristband available for use with static sensitive electronics.

[portfire]

Hang on. You mentioned handling flash on a carpet, this to me whould suggest that you are mixing it in your frontroom, bedroom, basically your house? Unless you've carpeted your workshop, but then again why would you carpet your workshop.

[d3v]

I mix it in my bedroom. The anti-static wrist band is a good idea.

It's just that all this fear of static electricity reminds me of the fear mongering PC World did on me when I told them I wanted to build my own PC and they were trying to scare the shit out of me with claims about static electricity damage to components so they could hustle about £70 out of my to build it for me.

Since then I've built plenty of PC's and have never needed an anti-static band or anything of the sort.

I'm sorry but I say it's all 99.9% bullshit.

Edited by d3v, 15 August 2008 - 02:32 PM.