38 replies to this topic

[Mortartube]

Up until about 15 years ago, it was possible to obtain a small factories license from the H.S.E for the manufacture of smaller quantities of explosives. The H.S.E did away with this license as nobody had bothered applying for one for 30+ years, so they quite reasonably argued that no one required them any longer.

Regarding insurance, if you had homemade BP in your house, forget it. You are allowed to make a small amount of explosive for research purposes but "you are not allowed to put it to practical use or store it", that would be the insurance cop out clause. I reckon they'd still try not to pay out if you had any normal fireworks at home, because they are a bunch of conning b***ards (IMHO) and you probably didn't tell them you had fireworks so they could bump up your premium.

Re cat 4 fireworks and fusing, most companies will want to see a minimum of divisional B storage and a great fat public and product liability certificate before they'll supply you, and your order will need to be on company letterheaded paper. After all they can get a whacking fine for EACH cat 4 item they sell you if it all goes wrong, so at least this way they can argue that they took reasonable steps to ensure that you were a professional.

[Stuart]

So whats the moral of this story? Is it worth making the odd fountain to light on the 5th of Nov, or should I light my 300g of BP, burn my cardboard tubing and give it all up. What do you reckon?  I mean I have never harmed anyone or anything; never caused a 'public disterbence' or made anything more powerful than BP. Besides who would charge you? You talk about getting 'caught' but presumably the police would only take notice is someone comlained or if you destroyed something! Its not big brother! (God I hate that show!)

Like I have said in the past, I think the government are watching the forums to see what we do. As long as we dont cause any trouble i.e. disturbance, blow something to piece's, then they are not to bothered. Think about it this way, if they did want to pull us in, they could just ask for the server logs, get our IP addresses, get our names and addresses from ISPs and then knock on our door with a battering ram.


Stuart

[tajmiester]

And where would you get a...

divisional B storage?

And you can't exactly get one for your own use I suppose. I mean how do small pyrotechnic companies start? Surely they need a licence to start buying (and fusing) the fireworks, but they need a company to get the licence. Viscous circle?

Tris

[Mortartube]

If you have enough land and a lorry container, you can get a divisional B storage for a fee of around ?60.00 a year (last time I looked). There's very little to it. You do not need a license to buy cat 4 fireworks, as I said, most companies take the combination of insurance, company letterhead and appropriate storage as the sign of a professional commitment. I believe that some types of fusing may still require a police certificate (like the acquire & keep certificate that used to be needed for igniter cord and electric fuses).

Work with established companies first and get your foot in the door that way, its not what you know but who you know that helps immensely.

Keith

[tajmiester]

What are the required distances and container specs? I don't meen to sound a bit dim, but what do you mean by

"a lorry container"

Do you mean literally a container off a lorry vehicle or is this pyro lingo for some sort of metal storage container?

Tris

[Mortartube]

Literally a 10ft,20ft or 40ft import/export lorry container, lined with wood or other non sparking materials and usually attached to a concrete base with darn great bolts through the floor and a high security lock (ingersoll make a very high security padlock for instance). Your local trading standards can help with amounts and distances (they also take your money to register the store), as I don't have the paperwork ready to hand at the moment. Perhaps someone else has the relevant facts and figures. I believe that everything is about to change with new MSER regulations coming out, so much of this will be out of date soon.

BTW it doesn't have to be a lorry container, but they are relatively cheap to rent/buy. It could be a brick building for example (WWII pillboxes are good). Also I forgot too mention that Divisional B upwards requires a lightning conductor, in the case of a lorry container, this is a 6ft copper rod pushed into the ground and earth bonded to the container wall but you will probably need a qualified electrician to do an earth reading on an annual basis to prove that your conductor is effective. Different trading standards offices seem to have their own interpretation of the rules. Any lighting inside will also need to be explosion proof (if you want a gripping bedtime read, try reading the regs for the installation of electrical appliances in explosive rooms and magazines)

[Terminator]

After deciding to give the maroons a rest for a while so that the police didn't come knocking on my door, I was wondering what would happen to me if I did get caught. Say they found me holding a tube with 300g of Black Powder in it, what would happen to me?

Hi Stuart,

I'm not an expert on the subject so don't take what I say as gospel but I believe your position would be as follows:

1. If you were very lucky, and were only in possession of a small amount of BP, no nasty explosive chemicals such as perchlorate and it was obvious to the police that you were only making fireworks, and hadn't been doing anything untoward with them, then you might get away with a caution. However, I wouldn't bet you freedom on it!

2. I think it more likely as RegimentalPyro suggested that you would be charged under the older Anti-terrorist legislation for being in possession of b**b making equipment. This would be especially so if you had a larger quantity of BP or were in possession of nasty chemicals such as perchlorate, toluene, Conc. Acids, or other chemicals associated with the manufacture of explo**ves. I don't know what the penalties are under the older legislation but you can bet you life they are severe and would involve a lengthy prison sentance on conviction even for a minor.

I also wouldn't bet on firework manufacture as an excuse, as the offence is one of being in possession of b**b making equipment / materials not manufacturing b**bs. Therfore, presumably you could be guilty by merely possessing materials and equipment such as seives and mills.

3. If you thought that was bad, then there's worse to come. The Terrorism Act 2000 S.57 says:

57. - (1) A person commits an offence if he possesses an article in circumstances which give rise to a reasonable suspicion that his possession is for a purpose connected with the commission, preparation or instigation of an act of terrorism.

Note: you have commited the offence if the circumstances merely give rise to a reasonable suspicion......

So on that basis even if the police couldn't prove you were involved in the commission, preparation or instigation of an act of terrorism, you could still be convicted by the court if the they had a reasonable suspicion that you were!!!!!

Note here: Could reasonable suspicion be satisfied by mere possession? Don't know the case law on this Act but if you were caught in a field with an armful of chemicals, in the absence of any contrary case law - probably.

4. Thought it couldn't get worse? - I understand the 2000 Act also reverses the burden of proof so that there is a presumption in court that you are guilty until proven innocent. - It might be harder to prove you innocence than you imagined. After all, if all it took were a couple of firework magazines and a formula book then every terrorist would use it as a cover. Also appreciate that not all terrorists are sofisticated and so the police / courts might be willing to believe that firework formulas were being used as the basis for a crude device (perhaps based on a scaled up maroon?). So don't think that proving yourself innocent will be easy especially when all that is required is a reasonable suspicion!

I also understand the penalty under s.57 is 10 years imprisonment.

Finally one to beware for the site host / posters:-

s. 58. - (1) A person commits an offence if (a) he collects or makes a record of information of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism, or....

Therefore be careful that what you post couldn't be used for other purposes.

Given all of this, my advice is that if you are in the UK, either join a proper club of the type proposed in this forum by BigG, don't experiment inside the UK, or if you do, then be aware that you might spend the next 10 years in the clink!

This is why I don't experiment, but leave it to others.

Beware.

Al.

[Richard H]

This thread has raised some very valid and indeed sobering points for hobbiests in this country. Here are my own thoughts in addition to what has been said above.

I'm sure every single person in this forum has good intentions but at the end of the day the implications are serious. The one thing that scares me about the anti-terrorism act is that it is so vague, and in the light of this I really think there should be a way for the hobby to develop legally. The way forward as I see it is to setup a not-for-profit business, and over time collect the funds required to purchase a small site and store. I would not be able to involve myself in this process for a good few years yet, but I think it might happen one day.

The way to achieve what we want is to work together on this. The law in Canada and America is the kind of thing we want. Perhaps we should all start lobbying our MP's.

With regard to:
"s. 58. - (1) A person commits an offence if (a) he collects or makes a record of information of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism, or...."

Does this mean that by possessing Lancaster's book I am breaking the law? I think not. I for one would be horrorfied that Judge and Jury would assume that the art of the Fireworker can be likened to that of a terrorist. Fireworks are supposed to bring Joy into peoples lives and to raise a smile, not to bring pain and suffering.

The forum is self-regulating in this sense, and we really do try hard to keep the scum out of here.

[lord_dranack]

"s. 58. - (1) A person commits an offence if (a) he collects or makes a record of information of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism, or...."

An A-level chem book could fall under that, which is quite frightening...

[PanMaster]

so its illegal to know anything about explosive science or chemicals

[Richard H]

I would very much doubt it. I think the act is referring to texts relating to the construction and synthesis of articles which could be used to commit an act of terrorism. For example the construction of fragmenting devices or similar. An example of such an article might be found in that piece of idiotic trash known as the Jolly Roger.

[Terminator]

I would certainly hope that mere possession of a book on firework formulas or knowledge of firework related explosive chemistry recorded in a book or on a computer by the owner would not fall foul of the legislation.

However, given that terrorists are using all means of gathering information, I think the governments intention when drafting the legislation was to leave absolutely no means of them getting information: -

This resulted in an attempted "catch all" which is drafted very widely and therefore subject to case law clarification as to its scope, which I do not have access to or even know if there has been any to test this yet, it would appear to me to potentially catch everything as it stands! Part of the bit of S.58 I missed off refers to electronic storage also hence my reference to postings on the web.

One would hope that common sense would prevail, but unfortunately in these dangerous times, I think there is a trend to arrest first and ask questions later. Only time and case law will tell as to whether or not common sense does indeed prevail in relation to firework chemistry. I just know I wouldn't want to be the case that tested it!

Even if not charged anyone arrested would have a very miserable time given that the Terrorist Acts have effectively done away with PACE and Human Rights for those accused as Regimental Pyro commented. Long detentions without trial at high security facilities are a possibility therefore. I believe there is someone in the UK at the moment who has been held for a year without charge under one of the Acts, albeit not in connection to fireworks.

I know that Liberty have been very concerned by the Acts implications and I believe a paper on the Acts potential implications is posted on their website.

I agree Richard that a legal method to pursue the hobby is the best avenue as is self regulation and vigilance to keep the terrorist scum off the site. However, equally careful thought should be given as to what's posted.

I don't want to scare monger but given the serious implications for anyone caught with chemicals albeit for innocent reasons and in the absence of any clarification, any one involved in amateur pyrotechnic testing does need to be very careful.

Richard, the Canandian model sounds very interesting, maybe you could enlighten me as to how it works over there.

Al.

[lord_dranack]

Long detentions without trial at high security facilities are a possibility therefore. I believe there is someone in the UK at the moment who has been held for a year without charge under one of the Acts, albeit not in connection to fireworks.

Thanks to those acts, 'they' sometimes don't even have to show you the evidence against you

[Stuart]

Has anyone ever heared or know anybody that has been cought (making fireworks) and what happened?

Stuart

[Chris]

All this talk about detentions without charge scares me to be quite frank. I would never have any intention of hurting anyone or anything, and I was unaware that such things happen. I mean it's a very nasty thought to think any one of us could be detained in that way, it wouldn't be very nice would it? A whole year or more in a high security facility without any charge, I don't see how this can be accepted. I still believe that all people should have the right to a speedy trial no matter what they have done.

I would hope that the authorities could make a good judgement and be able to tell the difference between someone trying to make people happy and someone trying to cause pain and suffering. Surely the amounts of chemicals we deal with is nowhere near that of what another might use to make a device with the intention to cause harm. For this reason I only want to deal with very small quantities of anything, I know it prevents me from creating anything spectacular, but I guess that will have to wait until we can get a club or something sorted out.

I'd also like to know an answer to Stuarts question if anyone knows of an example.