182 replies to this topic

[Mortartube]

Hi,

Having read this thread with great interest, I would like to add a few comments.

Many people here seem to be under 18 years of age, this means that under the explosive regulations they are not legally allowed to work in the process rooms or magazines.

Magazines are not strictly necessary for storage as you could use a local authority divisional store with a renewable annual fee. (about ?60.00 I think). Contact Trading Standards or Fire Brigade depending on your area. Try Trading Standards first.

Wherever you want to build a factory you will need to advertise a public enquiry in two different local newspapers. This is when Joe public turns nasty and will do anything to prevent the terrible scourge of a firework factory anywhere near them. You will need very convincing arguments and preferably an experienced person with an exemplery safety record just to start with.

Insurance will be a nightmare to obtain.

You will be governed by the factories act and explosives regulations, even as an amateur club and therefore you will be treated in the same way as far as liability is concerned, i.e if you were testing an item on the proofing field and a member was injured, a full industrial style enquiry would be launched.

I'm sorry to sound so negative, especially with my first posting, but these issues must be addressed before you can seriously consider undergoing this venture.

On a brighter note, it's less than a month to bonfire night, Hooooray

[Gor]

Welcome, and thanks for the dose of reality.

My sense from the way this thread has gone is that there isn't enough time, money or committment to get this thing off the ground anyway, and we are all spread too far apart.

I think it is much more realistic to try to get small groups together on an informal basis to do what they are doing now, (whatever that may be). And I guess someone needs to kick this off somehow.

I think that next spring we should rent a sleeping barn up in the Lake District and see if we can get enough people to make it worthwhile.

Having said that even getting together for a pint seems difficult enough.

[BigG]

It sound to me like you guys suggesting we should not try. Is it better the way it is? Is it wiser to suggest very illegal gatherings of amateurs ? working in a way that can really get you into trouble ? rather then strive for having the real thing?

UK got manufacturers. Those store vast quantities of explosive ? much more then we are about to ask license for (the club storage will be miniature compare too ? lets say ? an average display company). The distance between buildings is therefore much smaller. Those companies can get license ? so can we.

Again, there are exceptions in the act for manufacturers that do not do so for profit. Before assuming that everything is a problem ? let?s try to think positive.

Gor ? as for your beer ? any time. Does your job carry you down to the London area?

[Gor]

Occasionally. I'll contact you.

Life has recently taken a turn of events which is pushing me beyond my limits, hence a very sporadic involvement here. Not even doing a fire show this autumn which is pretty drastic for me. Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible.

I don't mean to be negative about what is happening here. I'm all for it. I just want to find a way to start, which might be from something small. I agree we should keep it legal even if it is tempting to push the boundaries. We will do ourselves no favours by getting busted.

[tajmiester]

Many people here seem to be under 18 years of age, this means that under the explosive regulations they are not legally allowed to work in the process rooms or magazines.

I think that anyone that is really serious about doing this will just wait until they are 'of age'; I will.

Tris

Edited by tajmiester, 11 November 2003 - 10:07 AM.

[Terminator]

Maybe I'm being naive now, but wouldn't a better answer be to try to persuade an existing firework company to donate us a shed or let us place a shed on their site and hold a club there under their supervision / rules?

Yes, we'd probably have to have seperate insurance and satisfy their onsite Health and Safety Officer and insurance company that we were competent and keeping to company rules, but if these problems could be sorted, it would get around the problem of having to apply for planning permission, storage etc to set up our own manufacturing site. Perhaps one of their technitions would give up a couple of hours a week to "run" the club thereby satisfying compliance procedures and ensuring safety.

We could probably give something back to the company by acting as an informal R&D department reporting any interesting new effects we had discovered or any interesting combinations of effects that might be of use to them on a commercial basis, along with any similarly interesting ideas.

Secondly, irrespective of the viability of the above, if we were to go it alone, why do we need storage?

Unless we are producing for commercial usage, then shorely anything produced will be tested and used same day thereby eliminating the magazine requirement. The only thing I can see that would need storage are the raw materials and I don't believe you need a magazine for these given that the quanities are likely to be small, although I do stand to be corrected on that point.

Al.

[BigG]

Maybe I'm being naive now, but wouldn't a better answer be to try to persuade an existing firework company to donate us a shed or let us place a shed on their site and hold a club there under their supervision / rules?

Yes, we'd probably have to have seperate insurance and satisfy their onsite Health and Safety Officer and insurance company that we were competent and keeping to company rules, but if these problems could be sorted, it would get around the problem of having to apply for planning permission, storage etc to set up our own manufacturing site. Perhaps one of their technitions would give up a couple of hours a week to "run" the club thereby satisfying compliance procedures and ensuring safety.

We could probably give something back to the company by acting as an informal R&D department reporting any interesting new effects we had discovered or any interesting combinations of effects that might be of use to them on a commercial basis, along with any similarly interesting ideas.

Secondly, irrespective of the viability of the above, if we were to go it alone, why do we need storage?

Unless we are producing for commercial usage, then shorely anything produced will be tested and used same day thereby eliminating the magazine requirement. The only thing I can see that would need storage are the raw materials and I don't believe you need a magazine for these given that the quanities are likely to be small, although I do stand to be corrected on that point.

Al.

First, I can reassure you that a serious amateur cannot ?make and use? his materials the next day. For example, round stars need to be grown about 6 mm a day. If you want a star of an inch in diameter, you will need to store it for at least four days. A large comet can take a week to dry.

Second, the amount of manufacturer in this country can be counted on one hand. You cannot just approach a display company and ask them for storage. The requirements on manufacturer are much more strict then a company that just import and store completed fireworks ? but I am looking at this path.

Third, Forget about R&D. The amateur construction level and formulation quality in this country is very very low. Nobody in this forum got anything to offer a serious company. Maybe free labour.

Fourth ? you do have to have storage for raw materials. Certain amounts of chlorates and perchlorates, even as raw materials, are considered explosives.

And last but not least ? you cannot avoid the manufacturer requirements by saying you ?will test it tomorrow?. The construction of a complete firework cannot be considered an experiment ? and that is according to the HSE.

In short ? no shortcuts.

[Terminator]

Fair enough. When I suggested a "Firework Company" I actually had in mind a manufacturer rather than an importer / retailer - I should have made this clear.

Also, a bit of virgin on firework manufacture so didn't realise that formulaes commonly involved crystals that had to be grown / naturally dried over long periods.

Al.

[lord_dranack]

I don't think its crystals that have to be grown. In round stars the powdered composition is gradually "rolled" with a solvent around a former.

[BigG]

I don't think its crystals that have to be grown. In round stars the powdered composition is gradually "rolled" with a solvent around a former.

Correct, although they are not rolled around a former ? but a core. In general, it?s good practice to enlarge them about 6mm at a time ? but this is out of the scope of this thread. The explanation was given to explain the problems in relation to club creation ? and let keep the thread at that.

[Steve]

Wow, its amazing what you can miss if you're not paying attention. This strikes me as a very good idea despite huge amounts of work. I would be interested in helping with funding and working through legal papers.

Also the idea of having a sort of BPS anual meet seems good. Lake district is a long way but i'm happy to travel for a decent weekend.

Steve

[lord_dranack]

Lake district would be perfect for me- quite close and I know it well

[Terminator]

Big G,

There is an army firing range near me that is no longer used (due to the fact that the bullet stop is on land belonging to the National Trust and they withdrew their permission for the the army to let bullets land there - walkers objected to it being "Red Flagged" and I think there was probably some anti-gun sentiment as well).

The firing range consists of a large flat field perhaps 1/2 mile across by maybe a mile with a single building and some mounds to the side (underground storage or just humps?). It is on the edge of the Peak District National Park and so although there are some houses nearby to the West of the range, it is otherwise surrounded by fields. There is easy access down a short lane and there is main road down one side though with the lay of the land this is raised maybe 50ft above the field thus ensuring it is well protected by the bank.

I am sure the army might let it out as it is standing empty now and has done for some years (10+).

Only question is whether or not it would be near enough to you to be of use for a legitimate club.

Al.

PS if you want the exact details e-mail me privately and I'll supply them.

[Loci]

Them might let it out, or they might sell it to you really cheeply... When I need to test stuff, Im not worried, got my own 4 acre feild out he back of our house surrounded by about another 300+ acres of farm land

[The_Djinn]

This part of the forum sparks and sputters like a bit of damp fuse. Maybe we need to take a step back before trying to run forwards.
It is in everyones intrest to try and get the amature pyro scene recognisted and legalised so that the majority of the forum users dont have to carry out there activities in cold damp garden sheds and sneak out in the middle of the night to test fire an assortment of their labours of love.
Early on in this link it appears there was communication with the HSE with regards to requirements etc. Maybe the way to approach them is to get someone that is recognised and respected within the industry to open negotiations with HSE and other bodies that would need to be involved to find out what criteria would satisfy them for there to be a formal amature pyro club.
The current legalities tend to be aimed at companys / manufacturers that store large amounts of chemicals and finished devices where as with the amaturre scene there would not be large quantitys of chemicals / devices stored on any proposed location as we are not intending to start production for the sale or distribution of anything assembled, they are for our own enjoyment.

A lot of people have shown interest in getting this going but the only way it can become reality is if we pull together. I know that due to age restrictions this will exclude a few budding pyros, but they must not feel excluded and if they are able to assist in getting things moving forward then great, as once they hit the legal age limit hopefuly everything will be in place for them enjoy the rewards as well.

Edited by The_Djinn, 13 December 2003 - 01:40 PM.