23 replies to this topic

[dave89]

After Christmas all my money worries shall be gone and i am planning on getting a nice selection of chemicals and tools together, i currently have kno3 sulfur and airfloat willow, and am planning on getting this tumbler to use as a ball mill.
"http://www.ukge.co.u...For=&PT_ID=382"
Can anybody suggest a list of useful chemicals and tools that would aid me in various applications. Seeing as how there are so many and i am on a budget. Just the basic components which would come in useful for various applications such as rockets, stars, shells,fountains.
Any help would be much appreciated

[cooperman435]

Id advise you reading the posts re these type of rock tumblers as it is general opinion that they are not able to cope with the weight of lead needed to charge them properly.

People cannot really say what you should buy as its simply down to what you intend to make. I suggest looking for formulas that give the effect you want then trying to link a few together that use similar components so you can have minimal chems with the most available formulas from them.

[Brakkie]

I could name a few times that you should definetly get though
Binders:
Red Gom, Dextrin, Arabic Gom or/and SGRS.
Oxidizers:
Potassiumnitrate, Potassiumperchlorate and/or Potassium Chlorate.
Fuels/Metals:
Charcoal, Aluminium, MgAl, Ti.
Solvents:
Alcohol and Acetone.
Tools/Equipment:
You'll need too much to name. Just think about rammers, kraft, diffirent types of glue, strings, fuses, tape, etc. etc. etc.

Make your pick on, as Cooperman already said, what you need. What type of effect do you want to achieve and get the chemicals and tools for some basic things. Buy as you move along. You don't need everything at the start anyway. I've been busy for over a year now and am still slowly building up my "stash".

If you want in the beginning it might be fun to buy small ammounts of new metals, binders, oxidizers. Small ammounts are fun to experiment with and won't break your bank. It'll give you a good direction of the effects that you like. For example I'm slowly building up a whole barrage of diffirent types of (exotic) metals because I just love the specific types of effects that the metals can produce with something as basic as TT as a basemix.

[Arthur Brown]

Firstly I suggest that you avoid Chlorates like the plague. They have too many incompatibilities.

Secondly I'd suggest that you buy a few good and well regarded text books.

Lancaster
Davis
Perigrin
Weingart

and loads of others have written responsible and well regarded texts. You need to have a good idea of what you want then you should look for formulae and methods to achieve that.

[Arthur Brown]

Add some more! Look at getting overalls, dust mask, and gloves (rubber surgical gloves by the box)

[digger]

Add some more! Look at getting overalls, dust mask, and gloves (rubber surgical gloves by the box)

I agree, safety kit should be at the top of the list especially when you start using some of the more toxic chemicals used in pyro. I buy Nitrile rubber gloves by the 1000, it is much cheaper and it does not take long to get through a box of 100 when doing allot of experimentation.

Buy the best mask you can afford. I use the one below and it has the advantage of protecting your eyes from a flare up god forbid. It does not steam up either which is a massive advantage over using a cheap mask.



As others have said read, read and read then get a list of chemicals together that will get you going on the basics. As for tools again as others have said it depends on what you want to do. But if you are quite handy and resourceful most can be made cheaply especially for hobby scale equipment.

If you are not already a member pay the $20 and become a member of passfire and read all of the articles. It will certainly give you lots of practical advice and the formula database is pretty good too.

[TCblastmaster]

When I started out in this hobby I too was on a very limited budget. As I wanted to make aerial shells I needed to make a range of colour comps for my stars. Having read Perigrin's excellent text I went for Veline's formulae. Massive repertiore of colours for minimal outlay. Ordering chemicals from the States was easier then but shipping costs were high so I wanted to place one large order only for the required chems to make coloured stars and effects like glitter. Some chemicals were easily obtained in the UK but the majority were not.

The only thing I splashed out on was an Ohaus triple beam balance for weighing out small amounts of chemicals very accuartely. At the time electronic scientific balances were prohibitively expensive and required regular calibration by the supplier. The rest of the equipment I either made or adapted.

As already mentioned good safety equipment is essential too.

Have fun.

TC

[seymour]

Hi Dave, it depends on how much money you have to throw at this hobby. If you had £10 000 then you could buy top quality and everything, in bulk. However I doubt you do so prioritizing is a reality. In the long term buying in bulk is definitely the way to go, but if you are not sure that you want to commit to this hobby in the long term perhaps that's not the right thing to do just yet. As people have said basic safety gear is a priority. So are scales, and as you know, a ball mill. For the time being ramming using dowels will work, but layer on you might want to invest in a Press and Rocket tooling. THe same applies with a star roller.

So, let's work up from What you have. You might want to buy some lumpwood charcoal, or make some non willow for use in non BP applications, stars, fountains ect.

The next thing that I'd recommend is atomised Aluminium, which can be used for glitters, whites and silver streamers. To make glitters you will also want a delay agent. For some glitters Sodium bicarbonate is fall you need, but for others a large range of delay agents are used instead. I particularly like the ones that Use Barium nitrate and Red Iron oxide. Barium nitrate is not only fantastic for glitters, but is also the top choice for an oxidiser and barium donor in green stars.

Potassium perchlorate is great but you probably wont use as much of it as you'd think. Parlon and Magnalium on the other hand are probably more useful than you expect. Throw in Copper oxide and Strontium carbonate and an organic fuel (red gum perhaps) and you have everything needed to make coloured stars.

You probably already have dextrin, but I agree with Brakkie, Gum Arabic or Soluble Glutinous Rice starch (SGRS) are superior and it's worth getting one of them.

Titanium is also very nice, besides the brilliant white sparks it gives in fountains, rockets, salutes ect, it makes wonderful brocade stars (that twinkling long burning gold streamer).

You might want to think about Hemispheres, Timefuse and maybe visco.

I could go on and on, but this is a starter kit, so I wont. However remember that it depends on your personal preference. If you love the whistle effect, add a whistle fuel (salicylates/benzoates ect).

Have fun compiling your shopping list!

[dave89]

Cheers for all the help people, i would have spent alot of money on rubbish if it wasnt for this post. Ill get to work making a shopping list now

I have a couple more questions
What is the difference between atomised aluminium and just aluminium powder? and about the Magnalium, what mesh do you suggest for stars?

Edited by dave89, 06 December 2008 - 05:01 PM.

[starseeker]

Id advise you reading the posts re these type of rock tumblers as it is general opinion that they are not able to cope with the weight of lead needed to charge them properly.

As you have quite rightly stated phill if you are using a rock tumbler and charge it with lead media it will struggle,but if you use inoxias cyclebs etc,you can charge your mill correctly and not over load it.I have been using the beach tumbler for the past two years with no problems,allthough i only mill my charchcoal and sulpher together and then use the cia method for my B.p.Using these small tumblers you can only mill about 70g at a time.

It is for this reason that father christmas is bringing me a 2800g twin barrel model for christmas, and then i shall sell my other one.

So if you are starting out and are on a limited budget these will do the job.

[dave89]

Here is my list of chems i plan to buy and the amounts and prices.

potassium Perchlorate. Per 500 grams £10.00 150 mesh
Strontium Carbonate per 500 grams = £4.50 250 mesh
Copper oxide (black) per 250 grams = £ 7.00 400 mesh
Barium Nitrate per 150 grams = £4.50 60 mesh
Red Iron oxide per kilo = £4.75 300 mesh
Titanium flake ( fine ) per 100 grams =£5.50 approx 20 mesh
Bentonite powdered Clay per kilo = £ 3.75 350- mesh
Visco fuse 1.8 mm= £11 10 meter
Parlon per 500 grams =£10.00 100 mesh
Red Gum per 500 grams =£ 11.00 200 mesh
With postage and packing it will come to around £80

On top of this i plan to make a ball mill using a scrounged motor from a washing machine or a fan from a scrapyard or skip. And safety stuff like goggles, dustmask and gloves. Also dowels and paper to roll tubes.

[seymour]

I have a couple more questions
What is the difference between atomised aluminium and just aluminium powder? and about the Magnalium, what mesh do you suggest for stars?

Aluminium dust is a very vague term and could (unless more information is given) be any one of a variety of Aluminium powder types. It's good to know what you are getting, because different particle sizes and shapes can create completely different effects in the "same" composition. The two basic types are Flake and Atomised. Flake Aluminium is created by pounding the Aluminium, usually in a stamp mill, to get flakes. Very fine Flake Aluminium is good for Flash powder, Flash cores, some White stars and even as a metal fuel in Coloured stars. Larger flakes can be used in glitters and as silver sparks. The very largest flake grades (flitter Aluminium) actually have visible particles! Atomised Aluminium is formed by spraying Molten Aluminium into a mist into an inert gas, or even water where the aerosol condenses into solid particles. The Two types are Spherical or Granular, with Granular being slightly more reactive, meaning that for most aplications a coarser powder can be used giving the same effect, roughly. This is because Granular has a gravel like shape, therefore more surface area than a spherical particle. I recommend getting a medium size Granular type Aluminium (20 to 50 micron, or 200 to 325 mesh)

As For Magnalium there are generally two types that any well stocked pyro will have. Coarser powder is required for Strobes and Crackle to be optimized, while for Coloured stars the rule is pretty much "the finer it is the better your star will burn" Anything below 120 mesh should work fine, with anything below 325 mesh being optimal.

Your list looks good, though I would make several Adjustments. Firstly I would not get Bentonite, Cat litter works fine. You may also find that without adding an abrasive substance to your bentonite it will not grip the walls well. If you use unmilled cat litter the granular particles will bite iinto the tube creating a stronger bond. However Bentonite is very cheap and you may find that it works fine.

Fine Titanium flake sounds like a big mistake for me. I have a horrible feeling that it would burn rather fast, giving great white stars but none of those wonderful long burning sparks that only Titanium can give. I recommend getting anything between 20 mesh and 80 mesh (very coarse for a pyrotechnic powder), It should not matter if it is Flake or Sponge, just get what's on offer.

Thirdly I would expect 150g Barium nitrate will be used up very fast! Compare it To strontium carbonate, which realistically is only going to be used in red stars, at less that 25%. Barium nitrate will be used in Green stars at up to 60%, and that Barium nitrate is also used very widely in glitters too, including some glittering fountain compositions. I would say get 500g or even a kilo. If you are worried about the toxicity you can relax slightly. Wearing gloves and an el cheapo dust mask will cut out 99% of what you might absorb, which is going to be minimal even without protection. Consider trying to ingest 4g Table salt through the lungs or mouth. You are not going to be able to do it accidentally, and it's the same with Barium nitrate! Also remember that Perchlorates, Chlorates, Copper salts and many others are considered toxic.

Stay Green!

Edited by seymour, 07 December 2008 - 07:13 PM.

[dave89]

Thirdly I would expect 150g Barium nitrate will be used up very fast! Compare it To strontium carbonate, which realistically is only going to be used in red stars, at less that 25%. Barium nitrate will be used in Green stars at up to 60%, and that Barium nitrate is also used very widely in glitters too, including some glittering fountain compositions. I would say get 500g or even a kilo.

With this are you saying to not buy Barium nitrate and buy stronium carbonate instead? Or just to buy alot more Barium nitrate?

[portfire]

With this are you saying to not buy Barium nitrate and buy stronium carbonate instead? Or just to buy alot more Barium nitrate?

Yeah, still buy the stronium carbonate but buy more Barium nitrate. Also try and source Strontium nitrate, makes much better reds

[RFD]

Excellent post seymour,a lot of good info there,worth pinning do you think Admin ???.