40 replies to this topic

[alany]

Your DNA and many other biochemicals need phosphates, I wouldn't be too worried.

[fishy1]

Just out of interest, does anyone have a video of liquid fire rockets? I have no interest in making them, as phosphorus is nasty stuff, but I am curious to see what they look like. The only thing I have found is a picture in Weingart's.

[Electron]

Hey guys,
Just wondering - are there any pyrotechnic uses for Phosphorous? What are its properties/dangers etc ? Just curious that's all!
Thanks
si

I have some phosphorus of the red variety. Mine is more of a claret colour than actual red. I havn't done many tests with it, but the powder on its own is quite flammable. I'll experiment with it some more one day. As for uses (that i havn't seen mentioned already): The striking surface of some match boxes has red phoshorus in it, and it is present in paper caps.

[adamw]

You do know that red phosphorus should be kept well away from other chemicals, KClO3 especially, don't you!

If you do, forgive me, I needed to highlight the potential grave dangers of this stuff. Personally, I'd want to be a million miles away from it.

[Electron]

adamw
I currently keep it with a few other chemicals but not amongst any oxidisers.

You say that you would like to be a million miles away from red phosphorus, it sounds like you have had some personal experience with the stuff? Or is it just the dangers that you have read about that are stated in texts about Red P?

Are there any chemicals in particular that it should not come into contact with?

I have read quite a lot of pyrotechnic and chemical texts and phosphorus often has a special mention but any knowledge you can share even if it is obvious or you think i might already know it is welcome.

[Pretty green flames]

Are there any chemicals in particular that it should not come into contact with?

Potassium chlorate for one will form a very unstable mix with Red-P, add sulphur and you will in theory lose a part of your body. I don't know for any other chemicals.

[aapua]

adamw
I currently keep it with a few other chemicals but not amongst any oxidisers.

You say that you would like to be a million miles away from red phosphorus, it sounds like you have had some personal experience with the stuff? Or is it just the dangers that you have read about that are stated in texts about Red P?

Are there any chemicals in particular that it should not come into contact with?

I have read quite a lot of pyrotechnic and chemical texts and phosphorus often has a special mention but any knowledge you can share even if it is obvious or you think i might already know it is welcome.

One extra danger with red phosphorus is its ability to change into a white form with friction. So, loose powder can form a minor amount of white one even when cleaning your work place with sort of hard brush, the formed white phosphorus ignites spontaneously and can ignite whatever around it. The burning red phosphorus makes really nasty and poisonous gases, besides some of it condenses back forming again white phosphorus whitch ignites etc. So, it is almost impossible to fight with already burning red phosphorus - even under water it keeps on burning, though slowly. I've had once accident like that, half a kilo of red phosphorus just burnt, all I could do was watching. The ones familiar with some military smokes could say that there's nothing better of white smokes than the phosphorus one!

Red phosphorus is dangerous with almost all oxidizers - not only chlorates. I mean nitrates and almost all heavy metal oxides. Surprisingly low is the self-ignition danger with potassium PERchlorate, but even with that please don't play. The extra sensitivity with chlorates can be explained by their chemical structure and chlorate's free bond's rotation.

Still, there a quite a large area in military field where red phosphorus is used, even in mixtures with potassium chlorate. Example - some shock-sensitive mixtures and "traps". Needless to say that the amounts are extreamely small and special care to be taken when working with these.

[Electron]

Thanks for the info guys.

aapua
Where did you you find out about Red P forming White P, that is something i have not heard of before and i would like to research it for myself, of course i'll search for information on my own but a particular source of information is always handy.

[aapua]

Where did you you find out about Red P forming White P, that is something i have not heard of before and i would like to research it for myself, of course i'll search for information on my own but a particular source of information is always handy.

basicly, at university we made "shows" where small amount of red P was put into a long and narrow glass tube, then ignited. The walls then covered with white P (very easy to observe) whitch started to glow. Pretty beautiful, though poisonous.

The fenomena of transformation of red P into a white one by scratching is well known in match chemistry (actually I started as a match-pyrotechnican chemist years ago). The red phosphorus matches ignition is explained as a minor amount of red P from the surface of a match box turns into a white one when scratched; this, plus small amount of red (or white, I don't know exactly) phosphorus being in contact with potassium chlorate in match head cause match head ignition. I believe Swedish Match must have done very good researches in that subject, about their availability... hmmm, not very sure.

The best way to see the formation of white P is just to take, say, a tablespoon of red P, then ignite. Let it burn (actually glow) for a while, then blow off the flame. You'll see spots of white P still glowing, all the stuff doesn't catch fire anymore, it just smokes and glows (the ignition temperature of white P is very low - if I'm not compleately wrong, then somwhere around 40 degrees).

[adamw]

Yes, I used to work where Red Phos was used - its just not a nice element to be around for many reasons (health, sensitivity with chlorate, etc etc)

[Plays with Fire]

Red Phosphorus is also used to make meth so you might draw unwanted attention buying it.