59 replies to this topic

[Asteroid]

I have to say, I agree with phil. It doesn't take much for someone with little working knowledge of the hobby to blow it out of proportion.

http://www.pyrosocie...?showtopic=3160
The person who reported this guy was probably "just worried about someone using it for bad reasons", called up just to be safe and the police launched a rather inappropriate response.

This ebay seller probably is above board, but everyone slips up occasionally and that might be what they get shut down for. If the company is deliberately selling to anyone, then I agree with you, but when the government decides to ban things like this because they think it's what the public wants(or "needs"), it'll be our problem.

Edited by Asteroid, 12 May 2009 - 04:39 PM.

[Creepin_pyro]

Phil, Asteroid, I concur.

Restricting chemical sales is no way to combat terrorism.

[BrightStar]

Phil, Asteroid, I concur.

Yup, me too (assuming they're operating lawfully). While it's right to be vigilant, there are dozens of non-commercial good uses for H2O2. I've occasionally bought chemical samples and solvents from reliable ebay sellers with no problems.

Buying from ebay via paypal, the authorities usually have all your details recorded automatically. This would seem to be a good thing from a national safety point of view. By comparison, I recently found 1 litre bottles of conc. hydrochloric acid available on the high street and paid in cash...

Edited by BrightStar, 13 May 2009 - 08:19 AM.

[StephF]

I have to say, I agree with phil. It doesn't take much for someone with little working knowledge of the hobby to blow it out of proportion.

A little working knowledge ? Hmmmm

I read BSc (Hons) Chemistry at Exeter.

Let's see now: Acetone Peroxide, Tricycloacetone Peroxide (Mother of Satan), Hexamethylenetetraaminediperoxide (HMTD).

All of which are just far too easy for some one to make even without a degree.


A rather inappropriate response ? Neither I nor you actually know what the response of the police will be.

All I can say is if I were in charge of the investigation I would like to do a little digging first.
Check whether the company owners are known to the Int & Sy services.

Do a little research, maybe even watch them.

That's a little more sophisticated than kicking the door in at 3am waving a warrant.

I do agree that sometimes the Government makes it harder for us in the hobby by tightening supplies up and that is a nuisance.

I don't approve of the "Nanny State", I don't like surveillance or people data mining my behavior.

But, at the end of the day if it is a toss-up between some personal inconvenience or the chance of , even the mere chance of some sick b*****d causing the deaths of a coupla hundred people I guess I know which way I will swing.

[phildunford]

But, at the end of the day if it is a toss-up between some personal inconvenience or the chance of , even the mere chance of some sick b*****d causing the deaths of a coupla hundred people I guess I know which way I will swing.

Unfortunately this is what sends us closer to the nanny state...

Take it from me, you don't want to know what I would do to terrorists, it's not nice... I'm no wet liberal.

However, I know that the chance of me or mine being affected by terrorists is as close to nil as makes no difference and I live in London where most UK terrorist incidents have occured. I'm more likely to be killed in a car crash or be killed by my trousers (Jeremy Clarkson!).

The government try scare us into giving away our liberty by overstating the dangers.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin

[Creepin_pyro]

But, at the end of the day if it is a toss-up between some personal inconvenience or the chance of , even the mere chance of some sick b*****d causing the deaths of a coupla hundred people I guess I know which way I will swing.

Couldn't disagree more, sorry.

Seems to me like the home office's latest fearmongering campaign has got to you.

[BrightStar]

Unfortunately this is what sends us closer to the nanny state...

Alas, the process has already started. I was amazed by this campaign when I first saw it in the papers:

London cops reach new heights of anti-terror poster stupidity

Taken to the extreme, we'll end up like Texas, where even posession of lab glassware at home is illegal.

[knackers]

The mind boggles !

I came across a business seller on Ebay who shall remain nameless, offering for sale a large range of chemicals including hydrogen peroxide.

We are not talking about small qtys of weak stuff here either

If someone is selling on Ebay and willing to take Paypal that kind of says to me they are not too worried what they sell to whom.

Needless to say our friends in blue received a phone call on the tipline.

If the pyro community is ever to achieve any kind of recognition as competent & safe people these kind of sellers need to be jumped upon quickly.

i respect your view and appreciate you community mind set, but also wish to inform you that a large quantity of concentrated H202 is not needed to achieve the goals of misdirected individuals, as small quantities of weak stuff, ie:- 150ml of 6% H202 can wreak death and mayhem , where does it stop ? soon it may be so that a person will need a hazard goods licence to dye their hair blonde!

[Asteroid]

I was trying to remember that benjamin franklin quote, but could get enough of it to find it on google. - it is exactly relevant here.

@StephF : I was referring to the police when I said that. Certainly anyone in this forum would know how to create a nasty device, and if we were in the police, we would know the appropriate response for a suspect. Unfortunately I doubt even 10% of the police force have a science degree, or a lot of knowledge about energetic materials. They recieve the same scare-mongering information aout this kind of stuff that the nanny state is feeding to the public, except in more detail.

I do not think that the majority should be punished for the actions of a tiny, crazy minority. As phildunford said, the chances of being killed in a terror attack are miniscule compared to almost everything else. Humans are predispositioned to fear risks disproportionately if they are outside of their control, or repeated to them. You would be much less afraid of being hit by a care (by crossing the road), because road deaths are rarely reported in the media, and you have control over the act of crossing the road.

The term "for the greater good" gets thrown around a lot, and can be used as an excellent cover for more macabre and evil acts. Here it is not quite as awful, but certainly the erosion of our civil liberties is not a good thing!

[StephF]

i respect your view and appreciate you community mind set, but also wish to inform you that a large quantity of concentrated H202 is not needed to achieve the goals of misdirected individuals, as small quantities of weak stuff, ie:- 150ml of 6% H202 can wreak death and mayhem , where does it stop ? soon it may be so that a person will need a hazard goods licence to dye their hair blonde!

Sadly you are correct

[rr22]

Unfortunately this is what sends us closer to the nanny state...

Take it from me, you don't want to know what I would do to terrorists, it's not nice... I'm no wet liberal.

However, I know that the chance of me or mine being affected by terrorists is as close to nil as makes no difference and I live in London where most UK terrorist incidents have occured. I'm more likely to be killed in a car crash or be killed by my trousers (Jeremy Clarkson!).

The government try scare us into giving away our liberty by overstating the dangers.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin

I totally agree with this Phil,
it astounds me that so many* buy into the infantalisation of our society, as to the motive "Quo bono?"

* not aimed at the O.P.

[David]

Was what was being sold illegal, or in breech of E Bay rules?

[Creepin_pyro]

Whether or not it was in breach of Ebay rules depends on the courier arrangements. The fact the listing has not been removed by Ebay suggests this is all above board. As to whether the product itself is legal this should be obvious.

[Mortartube]

soon it may be so that a person will need a hazard goods licence to dye their hair blonde!


Having met a few blondes in my time, I think it is an excellent idea to licence them. They are far more dangerous than many energtic materials IMHO :0)

Edited by Mortartube, 21 May 2009 - 12:30 PM.

[StephF]

The problem here really is the issue of intent.

A chef uses big sharp knives and a builder uses big hammers.

No one is suggesting they need to be controlled but both get used for improper purposes.

It is easy to be wise in hindsight but at the time a person can only go with a gut instinct.

I went with mine. End of story.

I really hope I am always in the wrong because the alternative is unthinkable.