78 replies to this topic

[50AE]

I have to disagree that chlorate + sugar is dangerous. Why do you think so ?

[dr thrust]

why?, just add sulfuric acid to that mix and it'll bust into flames, just the kind of comp you need in a firework.. not! where did you find those primes? all the formula ive seen with sugar in it, mostly "sugar blues" are very old indeed and pretty much superceded now due to sugars hygroscopic nature

[digger]

As Veline`s Superprime has been mentioned:

Am I right that the Superprime is intented to be used as a 1-stage prime? Or is there a need for a second layer?

When I read the original text by Robert Veline, I come to the conclusion that the further statement is appropriate. But will one layer of Superprime really light all of Veline´s system stars?

How do you usually prime Veline´s stars, or similar metal fuelled types such as Buell Red? Apart from employing BP with silicon, what are useful and reliable approaches? Thank you!

I have used the super prime a great deal in the early days and it worked fine on all of the Velines as a single stage (I occasionally gave them a top dusting with BP). However I find the velines pretty easy to light as a rule and just use BP plus 10% silicon to avoid messing with the good old hexavalent chromium, and silicon is pretty cheap.

Now Buell red should be similar to the Veline for ignition ease. Now I find things like Independence red a different animal and always step prime.

[50AE]

why?, just add sulfuric acid to that mix and it'll bust into flames, just the kind of comp you need in a firework.. not!

So what ? Does the composition say to put sulfuric acid in ? This is off topic.

[sir steve]

shumbyAfter my flame I better give some primes.

Uni Prime Joel Baechle KClO4 65, Charcoal 30, KBz 5 Gum Arabic + 5 .

Green KClO4 20, BaNO3 60 Kbz 5. Red gum 5, Lactose 10

Silver Brocade Sir Steve. Meal BP 12 , S 1, Al 3. Fe2O3 1, + SGRS 5%.

Hiki TS. Meal BP 3, Charcoal 1, + SGRS 5%

Steve



A coat of Velines super prime is normally rolled in Hiki excepy for AP stars

Suger chlorate is hydroscopic and friction sensetive, Add copper sulphate and
you tisk the formation of chlorine dioxide. that detonates at 37 c,

[50AE]

Suger chlorate is hydroscopic and friction sensetive, Add copper sulphate and
you tisk the formation of chlorine dioxide. that detonates at 37 c,

A mixture of sugar chlorate is truly hygroscopic and not hydroscopic and it's one of the least chlorate friction sensitive mixtures.
And why should I add copper sulfate ? It's not even present in the formula, oh !

[AdmiralDonSnider]

I have used the super prime a great deal in the early days and it worked fine on all of the Velines as a single stage (I occasionally gave them a top dusting with BP). However I find the velines pretty easy to light as a rule and just use BP plus 10% silicon to avoid messing with the good old hexavalent chromium, and silicon is pretty cheap.

Now Buell red should be similar to the Veline for ignition ease. Now I find things like Independence red a different animal and always step prime.

Thanks. That´s some useful information and sounds like good news. However, I´ve got two more questions. You say you step prime e.g. Independence Red: What compositions do you use for the layers?

Furthermore, how do you execute step priming? I´m really curious how this is done best; assume there are several possibilities:

a.) Spray the stars and shake in dry first stage prime. Let dry. Spray again and roll in second stage prime.
b.) Make a slurry (Toro-like) from the first stage prime and coat the dry stars by rolling them in the slurry. Roll in second stage prime while first layer is still wet.
c.) Spray the stars and shake them in first stage prime. Shake in 2nd stage prime immediately. Don´t know if that really gives good results but some people argue in works.

Thank you for your help!

shumbyAfter my flame I better give some primes.

Uni Prime Joel Baechle KClO4 65, Charcoal 30, KBz 5 Gum Arabic + 5 .

Green KClO4 20, BaNO3 60 Kbz 5. Red gum 5, Lactose 10

Silver Brocade Sir Steve. Meal BP 12 , S 1, Al 3. Fe2O3 1, + SGRS 5%.

Hiki TS. Meal BP 3, Charcoal 1, + SGRS 5%

Steve



A coat of Velines super prime is normally rolled in Hiki excepy for AP stars

Suger chlorate is hydroscopic and friction sensetive, Add copper sulphate and
you tisk the formation of chlorine dioxide. that detonates at 37 c,

Why use a colored or brocade prime? The effect will be very short lived, or am I wrong?

However, that brocade style prime sounds interesting. What kind of stars is it used for?

[scientific.pyrotechnics]

Sorry but I think your post should be called unscientific.pyro. What is the point of all these ingredients! Sugar with chlorate is just plain dangerous. In the whole of Valencia I have only come across 3 primes "uni prime" for AP .and either green or silver brocade for KP and for Chlorate ( yes the brocade does contain sulphur ).The last coat is always "Hiki" C6. The rule is charcoal in the prime, nitrate in the burst. My burst is KClO4 7, Al 3, KNO3 1.

You are most rude t be a "sir" and can you tell me what Acid sugar contains that could make some dangerous mix with sugar?

since only organic and mineral acids and sure sulphides will react and forming ClO2 and some Chloric acid that leads to spontaneous ignition in contact with air.

Can we get a comment from the Sir of Knowledge?
He might tell you the whole reaction better then i could.

Cheers.

[scientific.pyrotechnics]

why?, just add sulfuric acid to that mix and it'll bust into flames, just the kind of comp you need in a firework.. not! where did you find those primes? all the formula ive seen with sugar in it, mostly "sugar blues" are very old indeed and pretty much superceded now due to sugars hygroscopic nature

Any mix including chlorates will react that way, just try with some benzoate or so.

Cheers.

[scientific.pyrotechnics]

Priming a chlorate star with your prime is a total waste of chemicals. Sorry, but not everyone has money to throw to the wind.
Chlorate stars ignite with ease. They should only be primed with sulfurless meal powder to isolate them from sulfur containing burst charges.

i agree that the Chlorate are vey easy to light, but when you have a comp and uses +50% of KClO4 and just some 15% KClO3 a Chlorine donor then you might need that prime,
and i belive that KClO3 is both cheap and easy to produce yourself?

Cheers

[50AE]

In this case you are right. If the composition contains just a few grams of KClO3, it may need a prime.
The truth is, all my chlorate star mixtures have the chlorates as the dominant oxidizer, so I thought it that way.

For me, chlorate is both easy and inexpensive to make, I can compare it to the cost of my potassium nitrate. Perchlorate instead, costs me 20 euros per kg.
Chlorates are cheaper than perchlorates. But they are maybe harder to get hold of.

Cheers, 50AE

Edited by 50AE, 01 July 2009 - 10:39 PM.

[scientific.pyrotechnics]

I mostly use KClO3 as my main Chlorine donor, 15 % is to much to be using any BP or so =)

[Mumbles]

Lactose and chlorate mixes have a very low self-ignition temperate, and are more sesitive to friction than chlorate and sulfur. It is less sensitive to impact, but not too much more than chlorate/sulfur. All of the values used for the comparison come directly from Principles of Pyrotechnics by Shidlovskiy

[scientific.pyrotechnics]

can that be because of the precence of Lactic acid maybe?

[Mumbles]

I had considered that. I also considered the low self-ignition temperature being within reach of friction generated heat. Lactic acid isn't strong enough to protonate the chlorate to chloric acid, which is what causes all the issues from the generation of Chlorine dioxide, so I don't know how reliable that is. Then again it only takes a minute amount to increase sensitivity, but I have a hard time believing a weaker acid, probably present in smaller amounts would cause it to become more sensitive than sulfur/chlorate.