633 replies to this topic

[a2wpyro]

i just tested out a white star against normal bp star, both where tested in metal bottel caps

white star
Potassium nitrate 59%
Sulfur 30%
black powder 11%

it burns with a bright white light

bp
black powder 100%

burns with a bright orange glare

[BigG]

Matt ? just viewed your recent videos. I had to delete your entries as well. May I remind our members that although the moderating team is greatly fond of Japanese techniques, - kamikaze is not widely practiced.

Again, no increases in warn level, but please ? keep it sensible.

BigG

[alany]

OK, indoors I'll grant you is a very poor example for others.

However, why are you concerned about using a piezo operated gas torch and the upturned bottom of a *steel* drink can? The torch is surely better than using a match or pocket lighter, and again the quantities (about 200 mg) are so small any delay device, like a piece of blackmatch, would likely contain more composition than the pile being tested and present more of a danger! What's the forth NO, I only counted three?

I've always used the punt in a can as a testing crucible. I don't see a problem with it, unless you are testing something so energetic it would melt through it, like a thermite, for which I have a scrap of unglazed tile and a brick outside.

[bernie]

Attn: Alan

Winokurs #1-5

Potassium nitrate---------35-----40-----50-----50-----50

strontium nitrate----------15-----10--------------------10

charcoal-------------------13-----13------8------8------10

sulfur----------------------10-----10------9------9-------9

antimony sulfide----------10-----10-----10-----10-----10

magnalium----------------12-----12-----12-----12-----9

strontium carb-----------------------------6

strontium oxalate---------------------------------6-----8

dextrin---------------------5------5-------4-------4------4

Looks a little funny Mr. Honcho but it works. Thanks for the advice.

Alan, my copy of Pyrotechnica II is a little fuzzy so I can't make out the particle size of the magnalium. Take your best guess. Please let us know how you make. This has always been of special interest to me.

Edited by bernie, 04 January 2004 - 05:51 PM.

[alany]

Unfortunately I am all out of pencil sharpeners... I mean Magnalium. ;-)

On Passfire it lists -200 mesh granular for the Magnalium and chinese needle for the Antimony Trisulfide. It also lists a breakdown on the sizes for the Magnalium:

Magnalium Breakdown:
16.5% +325 mesh
22.5% 200-325 mesh
32% 120-200 mesh
29% 50-80 mesh

Edited by alany, 04 January 2004 - 09:15 PM.

[BigG]

Unfortunately I am all out of pencil sharpeners... I mean Magnalium.  ;-)

On Passfire it lists -200 mesh granular for the Magnalium and chinese needle for the Antimony Trisulfide.  It also lists a breakdown on the sizes for the Magnalium:

Magnalium Breakdown:
16.5% +325 mesh
22.5% 200-325 mesh
32% 120-200 mesh
29% 50-80 mesh

In this case, it matters very little. Even if you used just 100 mesh you would get a reasonable result. Try whatever you got home. Also, by default, amateurs refer to "Chinese needle" Antimony Trisulfide unless otherwise noted. There is very limited use for the "dark pyro" type of Antimony Trisulfide.

[Pazza]

What is the difference between the chinese needle and dark pyro types of Antimony Trisulfide?

[BigG]

What is the difference between the chinese needle and dark pyro types of Antimony Trisulfide?

I'm sure someone else would be able to give a more scientific replay about that. I can just say what it is used for. Generally the “Chinese needle” is sort of black-grey powder with white sparkly crystals in it. It’s used for glitters and for very clean white stars. Under a microscope the powder have “needle” shapes, hence the name. The dark pyro type is a finer black-grey powder with almost no white crystals whatsoever. It does not create good glitter although white stars can be made from it. It’s used to increase sensitivity of flash (!) and other mixtures, and very useful in reports and salutes. You will find very few formulations that actually use this martial.

The Chinese needle is created by crashing the actual antinomy sulphide mineral in its rock form into powder. I’m not sure about the dark pyro type. I also don’t know why they call it “Chinese”. Mines of antinomy sulphide are/were plentiful in the British Isles.

[lord_dranack]

Antimony trisulfide is also avaliable in a red-orange colour (as used in some old matches) when made by precipitation when hydrogen sulfide is passed through a solution of an antimony (III) salt.
I don't know what use, if any this form has in pyro.

[dfk]

there is a "torpedo" comp made from dark antimony sulphide that i could post if anyone actualy wants it (dangerous). These were manufactured and sold in the u.s in the 50's? i think. These are a device that contain a friction sensative comp that expolde with a loud pop and a nice big puff of smoke when thrown at anything. They are dangerous but when risks are weighed and one decides to make them they are really fun. I was obsessed with these things for a good while and had big black spots on all my outside walls for a good month.

marcus

[BigG]

there is a "torpedo" comp made from dark antimony sulphide that i could post if anyone actualy wants it (dangerous). These were manufactured and sold in the u.s in the 50's? i think. These are a device that contain a friction sensative comp that expolde with a loud pop and a nice big puff of smoke when thrown at anything. They are dangerous but when risks are weighed and one decides to make them they are really fun. I was obsessed with these things for a good while and had big black spots on all my outside walls for a good month.

marcus

Not even funny. Torpedoes are one of the most dangerous fireworks to make. So dangerous, that torpedo factories need high-explosives licenses.

Avoid.

[BigG]

I'm sure someone else would be able to give a more scientific replay about that. I can just say what it is used for. Generally the “Chinese needle” is sort of black-grey powder with white sparkly crystals in it. It’s used for glitters and for very clean white stars. Under a microscope the powder have “needle” shapes, hence the name. The dark pyro type is a finer black-grey powder with almost no white crystals whatsoever. It does not create good glitter although white stars can be made from it. It’s used to increase sensitivity of flash (!) and other mixtures, and very useful in reports and salutes. You will find very few formulations that actually use this martial.

The Chinese needle is created by crashing the actual antinomy sulphide mineral in its rock form into powder. I’m not sure about the dark pyro type. I also don’t know why they call it “Chinese”. Mines of antinomy sulphide are/were plentiful in the British Isles.

On the subject of Chinese needle and Dark pyro, I would like to put some corrections in place. Both materials are made by the crashing of the native ore – stibnite. Synthetic made Antimony does not seem to work well. The different names originally had to do with the location that the material were mined, and the size of the grind. The native ore contains, except for antimony and sulphur, a good degree of other materials (sometimes up to 10%-12%) that give it a typical appearance. The Chinese staff contains sort of thin sparkly needles that make the whole powder “sparkly”, but it is possible to find antimony tri-sulphide that does not sparkle at all. The dark pyro staff does not have a sparkly appearance as the fine grind embed those crystal into the general black-grey powder.

As for the grind, Chinese Needle is usually around the 200 mesh while dark pyro passes 325. Both (!) can be used for glitter and flitter – but by visiting Winokur's and the great help of my pyro friends, I was made aware that in order to get a good glitter from the finer powder, one should increase the delay agent (sodium bicarbonate, Oxalate, ETC) by about 5-10%. The reason for that is probably too difficult to explain in this short pass, but maybe in future post.

So, I shell finish with a poem:

“On the subject of sulphide,
I just wanna run and hide,
Cause fine grind I mixed all day,
And forgot to add delay!”

Hmmm, so I don’t have any talent. Sue me!

[Phoenix]

[EDIT - some of the compositions I had thought were safe are not. See the topic "Chlorate Safety" in Pyrotechnic Chemistry for more details. In fact, buy TIF 10 before you try any chlorate composition]

I now have a small amount of potassium chlorate, so I tried a couple of colour compositions today (with what I had lying around, my order of other colour chems isn't here yet). I mixed around one gram of each, and lit a small pile and a small lance made from each, just to see what they did.

I tried the following "blue":

Potassium Chlorate.......60
Shellac..........................30
Black Copper Oxide.......10

Didn't work at all. Burnt with a big yellow flame (not a sodium yellow - a burning shellac yellow).
[EDIT This composition is not safe. Chlorates and any metal oxide, especially copper, are incompatible. Do not attempt to use this composition]

Then I tried this:

Potassium Chlorate.........................60
Skimmed Milk Powder ("Lactose")....20
Black Copper Oxide.........................20

This burnt with a very, very pale blue flame. More of a cold white. Looked a little better from 15m away, but in no way superior to a modified BP white star (which always struck me as being a pleasant pale blue)
[EDIT This composition is not safe. Chlorates and any metal oxide, especially copper, are incompatible. Do not attempt to use this composition]

Then I tried Jerronimo's Copper Sulphate blue. This gave a nice result, with a fairly deep blue flame. However, whilst some people say sulphates can be used relatively safely with chlorates, others maintain that they cannot. This put me off actually using this composition, and I only mixed it for the purpose of experimentation. Not only that, but I guessed that the fact that copper sulphate is soluable and hygroscopic could cause it to form traces of copper chlorate with the potassium chlorate. Anyone know if this is the case?

My final attempt at blue was based on the above sulphate comp, and was as follows:

Potassium Chlorate.......50
Copper Oxide................25
Sugar............................25

This burnt faster than the sulphate comp. The blue was much paler, but it was still a bright light. It was improved by viewing from a distance. I may try making some stars from this to see how it performs in the air, as it was the best of the "safe" comps.
[EDIT This composition is not safe. Chlorates and any metal oxide, especially copper, are incompatible. Do not attempt to use this composition]

Finally, I tried a pink comp, based on the one in Weingart's "Pyrotechnics."

For comparison, here is Weingart's original formula:

Potassium Perchlorate.........16
Shellac..................................4
Plaster of Paris......................3

And here is the formula I tried:

Potassium Chlorate.............70
Shellac................................15
Plaster of Paris....................15

Again, Plaster of Paris is a sulphate, so I believe the safety of this formula is questionable. I do not intend to actually use it, unless Plaster of Paris is exempt from the usual rules in any way (Do any of the chemists know if this is the case). I really would like to use this if possible, as it lived up to Weingart's description of the Perchlorate formula wonderfully - it was a really beautiful deep pink colour, and very bright. I don't have any pure calcium carbonate at the moment, but I'll see if I can obtain some from somewhere (without having to mail order it). A carbonate based composition should be about as safe chlorate colour comps get, and if it functions similarly to this I'll be very happy.
[EDIT - This composition is indeed unsafe, and the compatability of chlorates and calcium carbonate is questionable too]

Does anyone have any OK to good blue comps that don't need a chlorine donor, and are agreed to be reasonably safe? Same for calcium carbonate pink comps. I will try Jerronimo's red comp when my strontium carbonate arrives. I guess barium carbonate greens are a no-no until I get a chlorine donor...

Edited by Phoenix, 27 February 2004 - 09:41 PM.

[dfk]

Anyone have any comps or using some, probably 250-350mesh iron?

will this fine iron spark.

I was cleaning the house the other day and found like a pound of fine iron that when I was a kid had mined out of the sandbox in my backyard.

Thers alot more where it came from (prabably tons) so it would be nice to find some use for it.

If for nothing else I was thinking I would just cook it up on the stove in some water and make iron oxide out of it.

[BurlHorse]

OKay, back to Star formulas,

A Favorite blue , takes fire well, good burn rate, little ash, from an old test run/competition in Fla, for the best blue, don't remember who to give the credit to, but whoever you are, Thank you. (Bernie was that you.....hehehe)

Potassium Perc----------------38%
Ammonium Perc---------------29%
Copper Carbonate-------------14% -- purity, purity, purity, do not contaminate...!
Red Gum------------------------14%
Dextrin--------------------------+4% -- or 5% if you prefer.....

Procedure: The reason I am stressing purity here is that great Blues ( One of the hardest to get right ) Come from Hard Work and Very Pure Chemicals, Ye Git's What Ye Pays For!!..........OK Lets go!

Gloves (Latex Reduces static problems, added benefit, respirator and long sleeve cotton shirt, Health and safety first........ALWAYS!!

Mill or Grind Two percs, one at a time, to dust. (Use the coffee Mill labled: "Oxidizers Only!)

Copper Carbonate (Basic) is general talc fine anyway, but that trusty coffee grinder can't hurt, again, fine as dust.

Red Gum, even Airfloat Red Gum will have junk in it, or clumps, sieve it first and see what you find! Then using your trusty Coffee grinder (The one that is Marked "Fuels Only") give it a quick spin to dust.

Dextrin can also have impurities or garbage in it, sieve it and see.

After grinding all chems, re-weigh them to be exact, I generally grind a bit more more of everything I need, and dump on seperate 12" X 12" squares of Kraft Paper to facilitate the re-weighing.

Combine chems then gently seive through 40 or 60 mesh non-sparking screen three times to mix, screen or sieve onto large sqare of Kraft paper, diaper it between screenings.

Rolling: #8 steel or lead shot works well, roll em up to 3/8" max ( 33/66 Alcohol/Water) and let dry for a few days in a reasonable warm place, don't force them with a fan just put them on a rack and let nature take it's course. 3/8" before priming with any hot Potassium perc based prime. (No NITRATES) These can be used at this size (about 7/16ths" with prime) in 4" shells with good results. 5/8" before prime, about 11/16ths" after prime, are a good size for hard break 6" shells or soft break 8", remember, roll no bigger than 3/8" size increments at a time, before letting them dry for a few days. (Lest ye like driven in stars that blow blind as bats.)

Cutting, Recommended highly for novices, as the alcohol will activate the red gum and they can be sticky to roll. Same as above except you can cut them to whatever size you like, drying time will increase for over 1/2" stars, prime can be minimal as square corners take fire easily.

These can be pumped, but they do burn a bit long for comets, I.E; Firestarters.

Tip: to clean coffee mill, use 2 spray bottles, one with Denatured alcohol, one with H2O, turn grinder upside down and spray with water first. Pay close attention to the area under the blades and bearing, this is where most contamination problems start, wipe it out with paper towel, some blades are sharp, use care. Use denatured to spray any remains, try not to get too much under into the bearing, it will greatly reduce the usable life of the coffee mill, finally one more spritz of water and wipe and dry with paper towel. Same with "Lid", pay attention to the area of the button, alot of stuff will accumulate there, but it has to be clean. Remember, cross contamination is a leading cause of bad colors, and worse if your only using one mill for everything.....Can you say *BOOM* ? End Tip

Standard disclaimers apply, your results will vary by your practices. Housekeeping in your lab is one of the most important factors in keeping cross-contamination of your chems/formulas to a minimum. The other factor I can't stress enough is keeping your floors in your work areas clean, I was keenly reminded of this just a few days ago after building a shell, using H3 burst. A few hulls were on the floor that I had not noticed. After stowing the drying shell, (Thankfully) I went in to clean up and had several hulls go SNAP-CRACKLE-POP when I stepped on them....A Humbling reminder to me to practice what I preach.

One more Blue for those with no Ammonium Perc......All Of the above apply to this formula as well......

Potassium Perc--------------------65%
Copper Oxide Black---------------14%
Red Gum----------------------------7%
Dechlorane--------------------------4%
Dextrin-----------------------------+4% or 5% if you prefer

Dechlorane is nasty stuff, Gloves, and Respirator a must, but we all already use them RIGHT?!?!?!?!?!

Regards, Stay Green

Bear