131 replies to this topic

[MDH]

I am making this thread to discuss new or otherwise so far untested chemicals with other pyrotechnicians. I am certain there are others here who have looked over labels at their local grocer, curious as to what they could potentially use their contents for.

I was eyeballing the idea of producing copper lactate and other derivatives of common carbohydrates to produce striking blue colors, since blue thrives in low temperature environments. Calcium lactate for instance could be reacted with copper sulfate, producing copper lactate and calcium sulfate which could be filtered out before the solution is boiled down and a final yield produced. While I haven't gotten this far yet, I have produced potassium and copper cinnimate (one of which I intend to use in a special formula: It's an aromatic hydrocarbon ), as well as zinc and copper stearate - both which make satisfactory fuels and work well with potassium perchlorate.

As well, copper sorbate and borate, as I discussed in my last post about exotic chemicals, provide excellent blue colors, though the sorbate does need to be cooled down a lot.

Anyone else?

Edited by MDH, 28 July 2009 - 03:55 AM.

[a_bab]

In the neverending quest for the best blue, I planned to try the copper aspirinate as a fuel. Copper thiocyanate has also been mentioned: NH4ClO4/CuSCN 55/45. It rivals copper benzoate in color production.

Once I'll try the copper perchlorate I got (grams amount) I'll let you know how it went (with hexamine and shellac)

Do you know other possible candidates? Maybe I'll give them a try.

[MDH]

Hi,

Copper aspirinate sounds like it might also make an excellent rocket fuel, though production of it must be expensive in comparison to typical aromatic compounds or similar derivatives. Usually when I'm testing I think of which chemical simultaneously costs little to produce both industrially and on a small level and how wide its usage could be.

Copper Perchlorate sounds like it would work well, with one exception: It's a high explosive. Like picrates great care would have tobe taken using it.

I'm interested in hearing of the quality of your blue with it, nonetheless.

Edited by MDH, 28 July 2009 - 08:45 AM.

[a_bab]

I would have never expected copper perchlorate to be a HE. Mine looks just like copper sulphate crystals (it is crystalised with some water molecules). Before ever attempting something with it, I wold have read all I could find about it, though, as "copper" in salts looks like explosive/violent catalyst fairly often.

I am cost-wise too; copper benzoate is considered to be expensive, but if home made, it may be no longer the case. The industry tends to "hop" to the next cheapest option when the old ones are no longer viable for different reasons (lead salts, paris green, mercury salts, lindane and others). I'm sure there are many interesting options out there, waiting to be discovered. In pyro, many effects have been discovered by amateurs (strobe, go-getter). Problem is, time is needed.

[Creepin_pyro]

There was a thread on the old APC forums which included experiments with various exotic perchlorates – including copper IIRC. Can't get the link to work currently but it should be somewhere around here:

http://www.xsorbit2....rd=Compositions

I still have an unfinished project to react Para-Amino Benzoic Acid with a copper salt to create CPABA... but having very little chemistry background I never got very far with it. I should've really studied some chemistry at some point...

Anyone interested?

[digger]

There was a thread on the old APC forums which included experiments with various exotic perchlorates – including copper IIRC. Can't get the link to work currently but it should be somewhere around here:

http://www.xsorbit2....rd=Compositions

I still have an unfinished project to react Para-Amino Benzoic Acid with a copper salt to create CPABA... but having very little chemistry background I never got very far with it. I should've really studied some chemistry at some point...

Anyone interested?

Interesting chem. Seems a little thin on the copper content though.

[MDH]

Just replying to say that I have successfully made copper ascorbate, which is a greenish-blue powder that deflagrates with a blue flame combined with perchlorate alone. It was produced simply by reacting copper carbonate with vitamin C powder from a health food store (In other words, expensive) until no more CuCO3 appeared to react in the solution.

Barium Chloride reaction on the way.

Still, also, looking forward to that lactate/saccharate/fructate, once I get my Calcium Lactate in the mail.

Edited by MDH, 17 October 2009 - 12:12 AM.

[Creepin_pyro]

The CPABA idea was not mine - apparently it should have some 'interesting' properties but I never got round to making it...

Did the Ascorbate look worth pursuing? because I have lots of Ascorbic Acid

[Mumbles]

One thing I've always wanted to try is the copper (II) salt of trichlorobenzoic acid, and trichloroacetic acid. Another thing I wanted to try was the salt of orthophthalic acid, maybe meta if the bond distances are correct. You're never going to make a blue whistle this way, but it might make good stars.

The tests with the various perchlorates were done by a group of russians. They were nice, but perchlorates of barium and strontium are far too hygroscopic for any real use. They had to be bound with strong non-aqueous binders. I've heard that copper perchlorate is even worse. It may be explosive in it's anhydrous state, but isn't once it is hydrated. Theres a reason the "useful" version is fully saturated with stronger ligands.

[MDH]

The CPABA idea was not mine - apparently it should have some 'interesting' properties but I never got round to making it...

Did the Ascorbate look worth pursuing? because I have lots of Ascorbic Acid

It was a mild color, equatable in quality to copper powder. But I did not test it with any chlorine donors. You will likely gain greater results with ammonium perchlorate and fine quality chlorine donors, both of which I don't currently have any access to.

Though, ascorbates should theoretically work better with respective barium and strontium or calcium salts due to their thriving in high temperature environments.

That is why I am aiming for sugar acids or other carbohydrate derivatives in order to accomplish a strong blue. As a simultaneous copper donor and fuel they could improve the color more than compositions containing perchlorate or chlorate, lactose, a chlorine donor and a copper compound (Such as say, potassium perchlorate, copper chloride and copper lactate).

Many carboxylic acids can be reacted with soluble metallic salts, but we have to keep in mind where certian salts will work best, and at which temperatures - Strontium or calcium phthalate would make a very colour fuel, while copper phthalate would likely look very washed out.

Edited by MDH, 29 July 2009 - 05:07 AM.

[pyrotrev]

One thing I've always wanted to try is the copper (II) salt of trichlorobenzoic acid, and trichloroacetic acid. Another thing I wanted to try was the salt of orthophthalic acid, maybe meta if the bond distances are correct. You're never going to make a blue whistle this way, but it might make good stars.

The tests with the various perchlorates were done by a group of russians. They were nice, but perchlorates of barium and strontium are far too hygroscopic for any real use. They had to be bound with strong non-aqueous binders. I've heard that copper perchlorate is even worse. It may be explosive in it's anhydrous state, but isn't once it is hydrated. Theres a reason the "useful" version is fully saturated with stronger ligands.

The chlorobenzoates are interesting (though I only used mono and dichloro versions, trichloro is £££££££), they enable you to make reasonable colours with just KClO4 (i.e. no extra chlorine donor) - however the colour wasn't enormously better than standard mixes, and at the price you could do an AP based mix that was miles better: it was kind of worth doing it though just for the beautiful blue-green/turquoise crystals of copper chlorobenzoates. I tried various chloroacetates too, but they tended to vary between hygroscopic and will-turn-into-a-puddle-as-you-watch. One warning with all perchlorates that form hydrates: DO NOT bind with anything that is dissolved in or contains any kind of alcohol, diol or for that matter ammonium compounds, as there's the potential to form solvate explosives and complexes that are unpredictable primary explosives.

Edited by pyrotrev, 29 July 2009 - 12:25 PM.

[Mumbles]

Well, I can make excellent colors without all the exotic expensive chemicals, but it's more intellectual curiosity. It might be possible to prepare some of the compounds in something like acetonitrile or another coordinating solvent to block up the two extra binding sites in the copper acetate/carboxylate species. They form a structure known as a "chinese lantern", so there are two axial binding positions left for whatever can get in there. Ammonia is an option, but then you risk knocking off the carboxylate from neutralization. You'd have to run it in methanol and bubble it in perhaps to get it to coordinate properly perhaps.

Trichlorobenzoic acid isn't too hard to make. Bubble chlorine gas through toluene with some iron chloride catalyst in the presence of UV light. This will yield trichlorotoluene. It can be oxidized to the acid from there.

I have other ideas of course, mostly for exotic effects. Blue glitter hear I come, heh.

[fruitfulsteve]

Has anyone tried cuprous chloride?

[sir steve]

Has anyone tried cuprous chloride?

Why do you want anything exotic.This is called Sir Steves sky blue . I a flattered becouse there isnothing really new in it. KClO3 13Black copper oxide 3Lactose 3Parlon 1 Instead of Parlon I use a mix of Parlon 50. PVC 40. RG 10. Steve

[MDH]

Because we are trying to edge up to the quality of paris green, or create a new formula which could prove useful and accessible while rivaling quality blues. Exotic does not always mean expensive or in inaccessible, just simply unusual within the currently accepted way of producing colours.

There is, in any case, nothing wrong with development of new formulas. We might, one day, come across one which sets new grounds, at least in terms of readily available information, as japanese and chinese pyrotechnicians tend to keep their amazing formulas well masked behind layers of non disclosure agreements.

Edit: there are many videos of CuCl, CuCl2 being used on youtube.

Edited by MDH, 01 August 2009 - 01:03 AM.