131 replies to this topic

[a_bab]

CuCl?

Now that's interesting. I can get a whole bunch of it, but in my experience once mixed in a compo it gets very hygroscopical. And this IS the species that give blue in flame (actually Cu2Cl2).

Maybe someone has some formulas using it?

What else can I get out of it? I was thinking about turning it into copper oxychloride. Will in this case work just a mix with hydrogen peroxide?

[Potassium chlorate]

I have this for you:

Potassium perchlorate.............................65
Cuprous chloride (CuCl)...........................16
Sulfur............................................10
Red gum...........................................7
Parlon or PVC.....................................11 or 12

[fruitfulsteve]

I was thinking N-succinimide +fuel say red gum +colourant say copper carbonate for a blue star,i wasn't thinking of making a copper salt from N-chlorosuccinimide,i just thought it might make a good oxidiser/chlorine donor.
I don't think cuperous chloride (cucl) is hygroscopic i have discovered a good way to make this using cuso4,koh,and hcl and have produced some good blues in the tests i have done. Copper chloride (cucl2) is very hygroscopic and is only really any good in flame boxes.
I could try and make some strontium perchlorate with perchloric acid and strontium carbonate but i do believe it would be very hygroscopic.

[a_bab]

Barium and calcium perchlorates are so hygroscopical that they are considered among the best dessicants. Magnesium perchlorate is the best dessicant known, arguably about the same as phosphorous pentaoxide. This can't be good news: something much more hygroscopical then calcium chloride -these are deliquescent too).

Nevertheless, somewhere on the net there were some formulas under the name of "russian fires" or something. They were all pretty much based on these perchlorates (Ba and Sr) and the results were impressive. Sort of like using barium chlorate: a molecule with both the chlorine AND the colorant metal.

Edited by a_bab, 27 October 2009 - 12:51 PM.

[Potassium chlorate]

I love barium chlorate. That's why I'd like to find a supplier for strontium chlorate, even though it's hygroscopic.

Edited by Pyroswede, 27 October 2009 - 01:14 PM.

[Mumbles]

Just to clarify. CuCl is the emitter. Cu2Cl2 is the monovalent copper compound. It's just habit to write the reduced formula instead of accurate formula, it is more recognizable too. Same as P2O5 vs P4O10. Copper (I) is unstable and will naturally disproportionate to CuCl2 and Cu metal. All of the useful salts are Copper (II). Copper (I) is just unstable. Any stock you have will change in composition over time depending on date of preparation, oxygen contact, water contact, phase of the moon, etc.

How exactly does the reaction of Copper (II) Sulfate, KOH and HCl produce Cu (I) Cl? Unless you're making SO2 or Cl2 somehow insitu, I don't see how it can happen.

[fruitfulsteve]

100ml 1mol cuso4 + 100ml 1mol koh = cupric hydroxide(the dirty blue precipitate) let this settle then pour of the liquid(potassium sulphate solution)add hcl(about 20% v/v)until all the cupric hydroxide has dissolved then add a small piece of copper wire and heat till boiling then quickly poor it into a large bowl of near freezing water(i use distilled) the white precipitate is cuprous chloride filter,rinse and gently dry (do not use to much heat or it will oxidise to copper oxide)
When you disolve cupric hydroxide in hcl you make cupric chloride(soluble in water) by treating this with metallic copper you make cuprous chloride (insoluble in water)

[a_bab]

It should noted also that in pure, fresh form is a white powder. In time it degrades to green (pobably turning into oxychloride).

My question: how can I turn say 1 kg of CuCl(I) to copper oxychloride?

[Mumbles]

Ahhhhh, thats sort of what I figured. The copper metal is key. You may want to try using a 2:1 KOH:CuSO4 molar ratio if the above was not a typo. I bet you'll double your yield If you have access to KCl, I can give you an expedited process if you're interested.

The disoloration of CuCl is from disproportionation to Cu and CuCl2, as well as formation of carbonates and oxychloride.

To convert to the oxychloride just bubble air through it for a while. The oxygen should oxidize it back to Copper (II). Dissolving it in HCl might help increase the reaction rate. Cu2Cl2 is soluble in HCl forming CuCl2(-). Alternatively a 1:1 molar ratio of CuO and CuCl2 is boiled for several hours, filtered, and washed with acetone. I think the usual method. Adding a 1/2 molar equivalent of KOH to CuCl2 and boiling should do the trick too.

Two new compounds I came upon while looking up syntheses. KCuO2, yes potassium cuprate. It seems to be quite a vigorous oxizider. Very hard to make, and very reactive so probably nothing more than a theoretical interest. It's formed by fusing CuO and KOx. Finally a copper based oxidizer. It decomposes in water and acid. I wouldn't be putting Copper (III) near any conventional solvents either.

Now a realistic compound, copper (I) Bromide. Again the emitter is CuBr, and the compound is Cu2Br2. It gives a strong pure blue line, and a purple line. It may form a very nice color. There are a few commonly available polychlorinated bromine compounds being used as anti-flame agents in plastics that could serve as bromine donors. Time for some samples for a newly founded plastic manufacturer . I wouldn't be worried about significant chlorine donation from KClO4.

[fruitfulsteve]

I must admit the yield is not good,but all the cuso4 seems to become hydroxide i'll try 2:1 next time.
This bromine thing sounds interesting i've often wondered if it would act like chlorine at temperature in fact i'm awaiting my bromine delivery,i'll keep you posted

[MDH]

Fluorides exhibit a similar effect, though to a lesser degree than chloride compounds.

I have personally tried calcium, barium and copper fluoride to little benefit. Calcium fluoride does still produce a very pure pink-red.

[a_bab]

It must be probably due to their stability and possibly due to the fact that the fluorides spectral lines are not that good in terms of desired color amount.

[Mumbles]

I posted this else where. I'd point you to the thread if I remembered where.

[CCH Concepts]

Ive seen this table a few times one question though why are some salts doubled, does this mean they can produce from x wavelength to x wavelength ?

[Mumbles]

I forgot to include the citation earlier. That table is from Hardt in case anyone was wondering.

The same emitters appear more than once because they emit multiple lines. There is no such thing as a monochromatic chemical emitter or formula. They do not emit bands of light, rather discrete wavelengths. For instance, BaBr emits at 536.1nm and 521.1nm, but not in between them.