104 replies to this topic

[phildunford]

I would observe that shooters can make up cartridges on their kitchen table, using several Kg of NC powder & storing it in nothing more than a wooden box under the stairs. Given this, if there is any sense in the world(!) there should be some middle ground for hobby pyro!

[Richard H]

I will ensure Wayne reviews all of these comments. We are still awaiting for the working group to be fully setup before the hard work can commence. The idea of bringing a consultant in sounds good. I would imagine daily cost to be in the region of £300-£500 upwards. If we are really serious about proceeding down that line, then let's get fund raising.

[fruitfulsteve]

A lot more paid up members would also help.

I don't want to put a damper on things, but i can't help thinking that the HSE and trading standards would want assurance that these home-made fireworks would not end up in the hands of the general public via car boot sales etc, untested and blowing kids fingers off. I don't see how this could be given with any degree of certainty.

Back when the small manufacturing license was available very few people knew how to make fireworks so automatically only people with an understanding and knowledge of the dangers involved bothered to buy a license, these days any idiot with a internet connection can make M80's, cherry b--b's etc and some of the less scrupulous would try and turn a profit.

I think a central UKPS HQ where members can go make test/compete/display self made fireworks, a assurance that proper safety procedures will be adhered too, and a guarantee that no self made fireworks will leave the site would be a far more sensible proposal. Then you have the obvious security issues to consider.

[digger]

A lot more paid up members would also help.

I don't want to put a damper on things, but i can't help thinking that the HSE and trading standards would want assurance that these home-made fireworks would not end up in the hands of the general public via car boot sales etc, untested and blowing kids fingers off. I don't see how this could be given with any degree of certainty.

Back when the small manufacturing license was available very few people knew how to make fireworks so automatically only people with an understanding and knowledge of the dangers involved bothered to buy a license, these days any idiot with a Internet connection can make M80's, cherry b--b's etc and some of the less scrupulous would try and turn a profit.

Well I think the thing to point out here is that all of those things can happen now. I don't think the introduction of a framework for amateur manufacture would either increase this problem or solve it. Ultimately if there is a framework then there would be a degree of scrutiny that could be achieved. It won't stop idiots, I doubt that they would apply for a licence anyway.

It is bit like the gun laws I would guess there are plenty of people with a shotgun licence, however the majority of the crime comes from illegally held weapons.

I think a central UKPS HQ where members can go make test/compete/display self made fireworks, a assurance that proper safety procedures will be adhered too, and a guarantee that no self made fireworks will leave the site would be a far more sensible proposal. Then you have the obvious security issues to consider.

Yes that would be great, it is something that we are trying to work towards. However even this is fraught with problems on both the legal side and where would you have it to serve the members?

I am personally somewhere between the two camps. I would like to see a framework for real experimentation. But I just can't see it being feasible for people to be making fireworks and letting them off in a housing estate. There will I guess need to be some careful thought about how this can be done in a sensible and safe manner.

[fruitfulsteve]

At the moment making a firework and especially selling them on would be illegal. I'm sure the HSE etc would consider issuing licenses for people to make fireworks in their sheds may create a lot of grey areas and loop holes that would be difficult and expensive to regulate. Don't get me wrong i'd love to be able to buy a small manufacturing license, but i don't think the powers that be would want to create themselves a load of extra work for such a small minority of people. We need numbers to build a recognised 'professional' society that's training within and membership of gives people a good chance of getting manufacturing licenses on their own merit.

The firework school(mentioned before)would surely be more worth raising money for.

[exat808]

Just in and checking the thread. You guys have been busy since I last looked in.

Following previous comments regarding how a suitable venue could be identified in legislation -

" the place of intended demonstration"

could be defined as

" any location deemed suitable by the person conducting the demonstration and for which a risk assessment that is required in accordance with Regulation 4 of MSER 2005 has been prepared and it can be shown that the intended activities shall cause no harm or disturbance to persons within the immediate area"

Please dont forget that in H&S legislation the emphasis is very much on the individual (or corporate body) to act as a dutyholder and ensure that by whatever means that they can comply rather than in criminal law where it is very much black and white, right or wrong.

[fruitfulsteve]

Sorry forgot to say the UK is not massive so somewhere around the middle should be ok, but i think cost of land and remoteness would play a big role on where.

[maxman]

Would something like what the Americans have based on their orange book not be good? I dont know all the details of course but whilst reading threads on passfire they have got some amateur status. Correct me if i'm wrong but its not a fedral offence to make BP. Depending on state law they can make devices for their own use and shoot them on their own property, not to be transported or stored! All this with no paperwork. I'm not sure how that would work out in the real world mind you. Obviously some have more land than others.

I've heard about type4 indoor and outdoor magazines too. if it only stores less than 10 pounds of black powder and nothing else, then it must be 75 feet from inhabited building.If it stores ball shells containing less than 1,000 pounds of pyro (excluding salutes), it must be 150 feet from inhabited building.

Then they have events where a place is hired and they take it over for the weekend,manufacture and shoot. I'm not sure that a place like that with everyone manufacturing would be the safest place in the world to be though. Anyway just a thought.

Maxman

[martyn]

A central manufacturing base would be my least preferred option.
One of the nice things is that if I have an hour or two free I can pop to my shed and pleasure myself (oh err missus)
Many components and assemblies of pyro also have a drying time.
I really don't think I would be inclined to routinely use a central facility - I think I and most others would also tinker at home or wherever, this would defeat the idea of getting legal.
I do think it would be nice to have a commom meeting / test ground where we could meet every month or three and swap ideas and experiences - I believe some of the US societies operate this way.
In an ideal world the HSe / Whoever would accept the UKPS as a responsible grown up organisation and would include them in the legislation as the training / examining body and it would be necessary to be a member and to have undergone training and examination in order to apply for a licence. Could we perhaps prepare a syllabus of what might be the minimum level of training required. Could we initiate now, a voluntary training / examination scheme that was operating even before the review.
How does one go about getting an exam validated by edexcel or whoever?
Just thinking aloud

[exat808]

Qualification by examination is already available via the Institute of Explosives Engineers ( see earlier posts).
The institute has 2 membership levels - Associate and Member.
Associate level entry may be possible for some of the more experienced UKPS contributors. Full membership can be achieved by examination ( general and specialist papers), written thesis, academic references, or a very prescribed military route.
We already provide training courses for SFX personnel and are currently looking at training courses and examinations to be held later this year.

[Arthur Brown]

The concept of a "society factory" is a hard one to see through. Very few people could start with raw and inert materials at 8am and finish a loaded and dried product by 8pm, without doing preparation first which starts to tweak the regulations.

Mix and milling BP takes time, coating break carrier takes time and drying time, making stars takes time and drying time, then assembly pasting and drying takes more time. All for fire same day? There is a Youtube of a PGI stunt to make a shell in a day, and trust the Yanks they did a big one (12 or 16" I think) but they used ready made lift, burst and stars and they used a WASP to paste it and the full heat of a hot day to dry the pasting. In the UK No Way!

[digger]

WASP to paste it and the full heat of a hot day to dry the pasting. In the UK No Way!

Maybe on a day like today it would have been possible. There a few WASP's available in good old blighty!

Slightly glibb comment, but that is not the only way a society unit could operate. But yes there are issues.

[fruitfulsteve]

I was thinking more along the lines of camping or staying near by to enable drying, rolling, pasting, coating and security of course. People go on shooting, fishing, racing, scuba diving, sailing, pigeon racing, model aircraft, ect ect holidays why not pyro ?

Just turning up to a central point when you feel like it on ya own to make fireworks when you want !! I don't see the powers that be going for that.

If every member of the forum(in the uk) became a 'paid up' member the society would be in a much better position to move things forward both from a financial point and a number of members point. Then a school/pyro holidays could be proposed to the HSE etc.

[crystal palace fireworks]

Given what fruitful steve and digger have said (i too am somewhere in between in my views), I think we also need to consider the reputation of the UKPS with regards to making fireworks from home at this stage of our membership numbers. Many of us have the enthusiasm and vision to create, but not all of us have the basic skills, techniques, confidence, and safety processes in place just to make fireworks from scratch without the guidence of a more experienced person present.

In my opinion, hands-on training within the scope of firework school via a NVQ course would be my preference above a small fireworks license for home use,.....this could attract more interest in the fireworks industry in general, and enhance our membership, although thats not to say that we can not look at a small manufacturing license for commercial premises at a later stage when we have passed relevent courses.

Should we not look at making in-roads with science and education establishments in our areas? or why can`t we consider approaching other pyrotechic companies premises to use at weekends? or as our vice chairman has suggested, perhaps we should just try and work towards legislation involving storing limited quantities of NC powder like shooters!

I think we should decide to vote in a months time on these issues.

Edited by crystal palace fireworks, 25 June 2010 - 06:20 PM.