104 replies to this topic

[Arthur Brown]

The forum has had it's share of flash kewls who would bring the society into bad repute, but here on the forum they may actually learn that there are better effects than flashing blue lights on police cars. Members of the society need to be seen as interested competent skilled and trained people, hence the need for members taking training courses like the cat4 course, the stage pyro course, the SFX course and others -all things that show that we are keen to learn to do it right.

Basically we are asking the HSE to move the rules our way! We will get better results if we a/ prove we are worthy of that, and b/ move ourselves towards the rules. Discussion with the committees will, assisted by recognised consultants, will take us this way - possibly slowly!

I doubt we will ever get to the stage that the States has where yo can buy up to 25kilos of black powder for home storage without permit!!!!

[exat808]

In my opinion the ability to demonstrate "competence" must be at the forefront of any approach made to HSE. It is very much flavour of the month in the enforcement world. It is not to be confused with "experience" or "confidence".
The demonstration of competence must come both from the individual and from the society.

[crystal palace fireworks]

In my opinion the ability to demonstrate "competence" must be at the forefront of any approach made to HSE. It is very much flavour of the month in the enforcement world. It is not to be confused with "experience" or "confidence".
The demonstration of competence must come both from the individual and from the society.

Just to clarify, my interpretation of using words "experience" & "confidence" was not a sole or defined quality to teach or train firework making without some attendance to display led qualifications. although it does help and is valid way to show the HSE that we are a credible and "competent" as a organisation to influence legislation.

[exat808]

This is a breakdown of what the IExpE members entrance exams for firework display operators comprises -




IExpE Specialist Examination No 7

Paper 1

• A one hour paper comprising short answer questions to test the candidates’ overall knowledge of the subject specialism.
• Health & Safety Legislation
• Hazards and Characteristics of Fireworks
• Communication & Accident Prevention
• The Law relating to the Acquisition, Transportation, Storing and Safe Use of Fireworks
• Recognition and Categorisation (British & European Standards)
• Law relating to Public Events
• Planning a display
• Choosing a Suitable Site
• Access/Egress, Exclusion Zone, Stewarding and Crowd Control
• Notifications and Availability of Emergency Services
• Risk Assessments and Safety Plan
• Site Clearance and Safe Disposal

Paper 2:
A two hour paper of questions requiring detailed answers demonstrating the candidate’s in-depth knowledge and experience of the safe application of fireworks and their ability to organise and fire displays with the minimum risk to personnel and the public.

[martyn]

Yes, thanks - I had a look at the website. It is heavily biased towards the display side of things, fair enough. This is obviously very important to display operators, and also of interest to many of us, but is not necessarily what is required for the hobby pyro who wants to build and fire half a dozen shells for their own enjoyment on (with permission) some farmland somewhere. I feel in addition we should also be required to know the basics of the chemistry - oxidisers, fuels, chlorine donors, colour agents metals, incompatabilities, chemical toxicities, sensitivities, ppe, etc. Of course firing / manufacturing site assessment, safety plans, risk assessments, transportation, storage, disposal, actions on.... all come into consideration. Obviously the iExpE exam is designed to examine competence to display (to the public) not manufacture. I would welcome an exam which covered the above and more.

[crystal palace fireworks]

Yes, thanks - I had a look at the website. It is heavily biased towards the display side of things, fair enough. This is obviously very important to display operators, and also of interest to many of us, but is not necessarily what is required for the hobby pyro who wants to build and fire half a dozen shells for their own enjoyment on (with permission) some farmland somewhere. I feel in addition we should also be required to know the basics of the chemistry - oxidisers, fuels, chlorine donors, colour agents metals, incompatabilities, chemical toxicities, sensitivities, ppe, etc. Of course firing / manufacturing site assessment, safety plans, risk assessments, transportation, storage, disposal, actions on.... all come into consideration. Obviously the iExpE exam is designed to examine competence to display (to the public) not manufacture. I would welcome an exam which covered the above and more.

Martyn, I couldn`t have put it better myself (nice concise summary)

[pyrotechnist]

I was going to say the same, display operator exams do not cover being a pyrotechnist which to me is the art of building fireworks and not always the art of firing them. We need exams in building fireworks, safe mixing of chemicals, health and safety, health and safety at work (making the fireworks within a designated facility, like a shed etc), handling of completed goods or semi-completed firework articles, storage of chemicals, storage of finished goods, storage of explosive compositions and stars.

[phildunford]

I agree with pyrotechnist, problem is, there is no longer a culture of learning these things in this country, so no organisations (to my knowledge) teach them. I know Richard once did a course in Pyro chemistry - is it still going Richard?

I have great respect for organisations like IExpE but I must admit that the syllabus for their 'pyrotechnist' exam made my heart sink. It reads like it's all about learning the small print of the law and avoiding litigation - not about the art & science of a beautiful display.

I'm all for safety, but I don't think fireworks are any more or less safe than they were 50 years ago, when common sense & self-reliance were the ruling forces...

[martyn]

I agree with pyrotechnist, problem is, there is no longer a culture of learning these things in this country, so no organisations (to my knowledge) teach them. I know Richard once did a course in Pyro chemistry - is it still going Richard?

I have great respect for organisations like IExpE but I must admit that the syllabus for their 'pyrotechnist' exam made my heart sink. It reads like it's all about learning the small print of the law and avoiding litigation - not about the art & science of a beautiful display.

I'm all for safety, but I don't think fireworks are any more or less safe than they were 50 years ago, when common sense & self-reliance were the ruling forces...

Phil - there is always this course run by Tom Smith which I recently attended and thoroughly enjoyed. A bit basic for some of the members but it was perfect for me.
I would imagine Tom would tailor a course if there was sufficient interest.

[martyn]

It reads like it's all about learning the small print of the law and avoiding litigation - not about the art & science of a beautiful display.

The reason for that is that you avoid litigation (or at least have a defence) if you are as safe as you reasonably practicably can be. That is exactly what we must be shown to be.
We need to get that bit right before we can even think about the art science and beauty - that is only proper.
It can be done - there is lots of talent on the forum, people like exat808 and digger really seem to have a thorough grasp of the law and regs, we now need to agree how we would like them amended in our favour and present a cracking case to the rewiew.
OK - it's not quite that simple - but that's the jist of what we have to do.

[fruitfulsteve]

The Tom Smith course sounds interesting,is their any practical chemistry involved or is it all theory based? Also i see it's held at a sailing club is their a display or any demonstrations?

[martyn]

The Tom Smith course sounds interesting,is their any practical chemistry involved or is it all theory based? Also i see it's held at a sailing club is their a display or any demonstrations?

It's all theory - but he pitches the delivery at the level of the class - perhaps if the class wanted practical demonstration he might provide it. He is 100% legit though - so no making fireworks.
On one of the days there is a tour of Kimbolton. There are some demos here. I seem to remember the demo reinforced the colour theory and a bit about strobes and whistles.
I actually wrote a short piece about the course for possible inclusion in the next edition of spark. Probably a bit redundant now that I have mentioned it here, but Phil asked about pyro chemistry courses.

[Arthur Brown]

http://www.pyrodirec...w/025-0030.html
Could be an interesting book! Send him a message after 4th July see if he will post books the the UK, I think he may. Look at the rest of his books too.

[martyn]

He does - I bought it and some others. some of them have a slightly 'homemade' look about them - but the content is ok.
you get a copy of this book when you do the davas pyro chemistry course.

[crystal palace fireworks]

Cranfield University have some pyro courses, but they are very expensive, and seem to be aimed at those with HNC/degree level qualifications as an entrance minimum.

Even so, as was mentioned earlier, it might be worth approaching the course tutors to devise something for us!

For some reason, I can`t seem to copy/paste the page.