33 replies to this topic

[Potassium chlorate]

Will it work?

In another thread we were discusssing different types of blue when one had no access to Paris Green (which most of us haven't).

Then I found this formula with simply ammonium perchlorate and copper benzoate. If it looks the same IRL as in the video it's amazing.

[pyrotechnist]

What you got to remember is that a blue may look deep and amazing up close but because blue is such a dark colour from a distance or in the air it may look washed out or hardly visible. Does look a good blue indeed but a cheap camera can make some colours look better than they really are and vice versa. I believe a blue needs to be bright enough to be visible from a distance but have a nice enough blue tinge around the edges that reflects off of the smoke. If you look at any good blue shell you will see the stars are brightly white in the middle and a nice blue around the edges instead of blue nearly all the way through.

But no harm in trying these things as testing is what moves this industry forward so test away .

[seymour]

The title implies that you want to explore the manufacture of Copper benzoate, but your post indicates that you simply want to make the formula. I'll assume that you want to do both.

There are two routes that I've used to make Copper benzoate.

I have boiled Benzoic acid and Copper carbonate together. Since neither are all that soluble, this takes some time!

I have also added a solution of a soluble benzoate and a soluble copper salt. Copper sulfate is the most avaliable to most of us, but I have also made chlorides and nitrates with copper scrap and acids. Copper benzoate precipitates out, while the sodium/potassium sulfate/chloride/nitrate should stay in solutions.

However, Copper carbonate with Potassium benzoate shiould not work, as far as what I know about the subject is conserned. Copper benzoate is more soluble than copper carbonate, so it's not going to form Copper benzoate, since the less soluble chemical precipitates (or in this case does not dissolve). Since in the other reaction, it relies on an acid-base reaction, you are also going to run in to problems if you swap an acid with a salt. Again, I expect there to be no reaction.

Edited by seymour, 02 June 2010 - 10:52 AM.

[Potassium chlorate]

What you got to remember is that a blue may look deep and amazing up close but because blue is such a dark colour from a distance or in the air it may look washed out or hardly visible. Does look a good blue indeed but a cheap camera can make some colours look better than they really are and vice versa. I believe a blue needs to be bright enough to be visible from a distance but have a nice enough blue tinge around the edges that reflects off of the smoke. If you look at any good blue shell you will see the stars are brightly white in the middle and a nice blue around the edges instead of blue nearly all the way through.

But no harm in trying these things as testing is what moves this industry forward so test away .

I have this far just tested one blue formula in the air. Usually I always have formulas with a bit metal fuel in them in the air, because I know that they might look pale from a distance.



The tricky thing with copper is that the temperature must be high but not too high, while for example strontium often doesn't even need a chlorine donor.

Edited by Pyroswede, 02 June 2010 - 11:16 AM.

[Potassium chlorate]

The title implies that you want to explore the manufacture of Copper benzoate, but your post indicates that you simply want to make the formula. I'll assume that you want to do both.

There are two routes that I've used to make Copper benzoate.

I have boiled Benzoic acid and Copper carbonate together. Since neither are all that soluble, this takes some time!

I have also added a solution of a soluble benzoate and a soluble copper salt. Copper sulfate is the most avaliable to most of us, but I have also made chlorides and nitrates with copper scrap and acids. Copper benzoate precipitates out, while the sodium/potassium sulfate/chloride/nitrate should stay in solutions.

However, Copper carbonate with Potassium benzoate shiould not work, as far as what I know about the subject is conserned. Copper benzoate is more soluble than copper carbonate, so it's not going to form Copper benzoate, since the less soluble chemical precipitates (or in this case does not dissolve). Since in the other reaction, it relies on an acid-base reaction, you are also going to run in to problems if you swap an acid with a salt. Again, I expect there to be no reaction.

I can buy copper sulfate in any hardware store here without trouble, except for the price. It's incredibly expensive if you don't buy it in bulk quantities. The price/kilo is about 200 Swedish kronor or almost £20.

Damned. Well, I'll try some other compositions first then, I guess.

[Mumbles]

Copper benzoate naturally precipitates with 3 waters of hydration I do believe. These can be replaced with alcohols instead, which should be just as air stable. I've often wondered what difference these two would have in a composition, vs. the unsolvated. The water complex may burn cooler, but also at the expense of smoothness of burn. The alcohol adduct I believe is a somewhat green color. You can prepare it by soaking or boiling the blue hydrate or anhydrous compound in alcohol, and letting it precipitate/evaporate.

Just because of the structure, and how they happen to form, it should be possible to precipitate a salt with 6 benzoates per two copper atoms. There would be 4 bridging deprotonated benzoates, with two benzoic acid molecules coordinated. I wonder how that would work too. The extra fuel value may be detrimental.

[MDH]

Will it work?

In another thread we were discusssing different types of blue when one had no access to Paris Green (which most of us haven't).

Then I found this formula with simply ammonium perchlorate and copper benzoate. If it looks the same IRL as in the video it's amazing.

No, you will need a soluble copper salt. React copper carbonate with acetic acid first, then proceed to react that with potassium benzoate dissolved in distilled water.

The result will be a light blue precipitate which can be seperated in a coffee filter.

[Potassium chlorate]

Ah, I do have acetic acid.

So I can make copper acetate and then copper benzoate?

[CCH Concepts]

did anyone see this on the youtube link

[Potassium chlorate]

Yes, I already have it favourited. I want to avoid the copper sulfate route, though, at least until I'm buying chemicals from abroad again, considering the prices on copper sulfate in this country.

[Potassium chlorate]

Now I see that KeteN actually has copper benzoate. Maybe I should buy it from him instead.

[Potassium chlorate]

Well, here it is anyway. It's 82% ammonium perchlorate and 18% copper benzoate monohydrate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDjTKMwEMmg

[RFD]

Pyroswede,did you bind with Nc?,ive tried with dextrin and alc/water apart from being a bugger to dry, and burn a little bit slower i cound'nt see a colour difference between NC and dex.

[MDH]

It looks like it could use additional copper. Perhaps even a coated metal of some sort, such as mangalium. It's a nice blue but it's missing a certain "oomph".

[Potassium chlorate]

It looks like it could use additional copper. Perhaps even a coated metal of some sort, such as mangalium. It's a nice blue but it's missing a certain "oomph".

I'm going to experiment with New Blue and additional copper salts, so don't worry.