65 replies to this topic

[darkfang77]

Hello,
I want to ask questions about magnesium flares. I have a trayload of magnesium and I am thinking about using them to make a flare.

First, does anyone have any idea where one can get instructions on how to make them? Are there similar to fountains? Are there any magnesium/perchlorate based formulas anyone can suggest? I almost thought about using nitrate and then I remembered that nitrate + magnesium = A + E.

Secondly, how do people using magnesium search and rescue based flares hold them if they burn really hot? And how come we can see the light from every angle even though there's only a small opening at the top?

=)

[MDH]

All magnesium flares are simply nitrates with organic and some inorganic compounds to slow their burning speed while maximizing light output. Patents can be easily googled.

Edited by MDH, 10 August 2010 - 11:27 PM.

[Arthur Brown]

Most of the highly regarded name texts will give detailed and tested formulae for flares of all colours, Weingart, Shidlovskiy and Ellern would be my first choices, also looking at Davis and Lancaster. Federoff may have some relevant content but it's so big its hard to navigate. Some of the books will have tables of flare compositions, some will mention the hazards of the mix and the mixing and preparation methods.

The making of true distress flares is a whole industry. These items are not classified as fireworks but as distress flares as they must have a long life with reliable effect to the end of life(yes they have a use by date marked on them), also the ignition method is special to the intended use, -you don't have a lit portfire in a life raft!

[BrightStar]

I want to ask questions about magnesium flares. I have a trayload of magnesium and I am thinking about using them to make a flare.

Firstly, it sounds like you might have to do a bit more reading first. Mg based flare compositions are hazardous to prepare and use.

To add to what others have said, nitrates are usually used in Mg flares. Coating the Mg with boiled linseed oil or paraffin wax will passivate it sufficiently to use with strontium nitrate for example, providing that a non-aqueous binder is used. Having tested various historical comps the colour depth is much better with the nitrates than for example perchlorate / carbonate versions.

The handle of the flare is insulating and usually slides away from an inner steel tube and locks in place. Since it is the 'flame envelope' of hot ionised gasses that emits most of the light rather than the burning surface, this appears at the tip of the steel tube. As you say, this allows 360 degree visibility. The steel tube becomes red hot during use - I don't really understand how premature ignition (and hence explosion) of the un-burnt composition is prevented as it heats up.

Energetic mixes in steel tubes are something we don't do here, so you might want to look up Weingart's 'Parade Torches' where he gives a number of compositions of varying costs that can be charged into cardboard tubes with wooden handles.

Edited by BrightStar, 11 August 2010 - 11:55 AM.

[darkfang77]

Most of the highly regarded name texts will give detailed and tested formulae for flares of all colours, Weingart, Shidlovskiy and Ellern would be my first choices, also looking at Davis and Lancaster. Federoff may have some relevant content but it's so big its hard to navigate. Some of the books will have tables of flare compositions, some will mention the hazards of the mix and the mixing and preparation methods.

The making of true distress flares is a whole industry. These items are not classified as fireworks but as distress flares as they must have a long life with reliable effect to the end of life(yes they have a use by date marked on them), also the ignition method is special to the intended use, -you don't have a lit portfire in a life raft!

Thank You for the info there, I will do a little (lot) more research before I attempt to further my magnesium flare. I will keep these names in mind, hopefully, my local library will stock any of these names .

Firstly, it sounds like you might have to do a bit more reading first. Mg based flare compositions are hazardous to prepare and use.

To add to what others have said, nitrates are usually used in Mg flares. Coating the Mg with boiled linseed oil or paraffin wax will passivate it sufficiently to use with strontium nitrate for example, providing that a non-aqueous binder is used. Having tested various historical comps the colour depth is much better with the nitrates than for example perchlorate / carbonate versions.

The handle of the flare is insulating and usually slides away from an inner steel tube and locks in place. Since it is the 'flame envelope' of hot ionised gasses that emits most of the light rather than the burning surface, this appears at the tip of the steel tube. As you say, this allows 360 degree visibility. The steel tube becomes red hot during use - I don't really understand how premature ignition (and hence explosion) of the un-burnt composition is prevented as it heats up.

Energetic mixes in steel tubes are something we don't do here, so you might want to look up Weingart's 'Parade Torches' where he gives a number of compositions of varying costs that can be charged into cardboard tubes with wooden handles.

Ahh, I will have to a lots of reading now. Clearly safety is the top priority when messing around with magnesium and I won't be planning a steel tube to store my composition (I had no plans anyway but thanks for the advice). When you say the handle of the flare is insulating, how is it? What sort of material is tough enough to insulate that much heat without being destroyed in the process? Moreover, if the light is emitted by the ionised gases, how come it does not harm the holder, I know that heat rises, but surely a portion of the gases would fall down due to convection? I will look up the "Parade Torches" and see what options I get.

[Arthur Brown]

"hopefully, my local library will stock any of these names "

NOT a hope! Unless you are in a University town with good bookshops Ebay will be your friend.

Possibly abebooks dot your country may help.

Count your fingers, if that number changes you didn't do enough or the right research. -Makes the cost of books REAL BOOKS quite trivial when you look at it that way.

[darkfang77]

"hopefully, my local library will stock any of these names "

NOT a hope! Unless you are in a University town with good bookshops Ebay will be your friend.

Possibly abebooks dot your country may help.

Count your fingers, if that number changes you didn't do enough or the right research. -Makes the cost of books REAL BOOKS quite trivial when you look at it that way.

This is looking really grim for me.
I will check on eBay for these items, hopefully they're within my budget range but it still looks grim.

Arthur, do you have a cross section/diagram of any flare, cardboard, homemade, or professional. I want to get an idea of what one looks like before investing into material that I can't use, it'll also give me an idea on how it works, etc. So far I have no idea how it works, i'm guessing there is composition within an open tube, and then what? Does it work like an unchoked fountain?

[Arthur Brown]

They MUST be within your budget, or just don't start. It's only the learning from the masters that keeps your fingers and skin attached.
Item number: 220640552570,
Item number: 310239576402,
Item number: 250343354117

You just are not looking properly. Maybe it's time to put the magnesium in a proper bottle, properly labelled and hide it for a while til you have the rest of the skillset to keep safe with it.

http://www.abebooks....xplosives&sts=t
http://www.abebooks....Fireworks&sts=t
http://www.abebooks....fireworks&sts=t

Edited by Arthur Brown, 11 August 2010 - 06:08 PM.

[darkfang77]

They MUST be within your budget, or just don't start. It's only the learning from the masters that keeps your fingers and skin attached. Item number: 220640552570

Just checked out the eBay item.
It's over £40 plus postage. It's in dollars as well which makes the problem just as worse.
The average teenager's salary simply cannot afford to buy such resources, tempting it may be. Plus, I don't have dollars available =(

Call it intuition, but there's no way I can justify a possible loan for >£40 for one book with no return.

Sorry I don't have better news. The only possible thing I can think of to finance this is EMA and I will still have to wait weeks to get enough money to finance this.

Advice anybody? A bit of imaginative advice would be awesomely appreciated.

Edit: Ahh, just saw those extra links you put in, checking them now.


2nd Edit: While I'm sure these books are a wealth of information, why are they so expensive, is it because they're not mass printed?

Edited by darkfang77, 11 August 2010 - 06:14 PM.

[Arthur Brown]

Seriously, buy decent bottles and put all your pyro bits away til you have the knowledge to know how some of these things work. EMA is bribing you to stay at school imagine trying to go for a job interview with some fingers missing, or your face severely burned.

"2nd Edit: While I'm sure these books are a wealth of information, why are they so expensive, is it because they're not mass printed?"

Exactly these are the books written by the masters, it's a very small market. However these books will stand you in good stead for all of your life. Ask your parents to buy you one of these as a birthday present or .... I trust you have discussed doing pyro with them.

Edited by Arthur Brown, 11 August 2010 - 06:23 PM.

[darkfang77]

Seriously, buy decent bottles and put all your pyro bits away til you have the knowledge to know how some of these things work. EMA is bribing you to stay at school imagine trying to go for a job interview with some fingers missing, or your face severely burned.

"2nd Edit: While I'm sure these books are a wealth of information, why are they so expensive, is it because they're not mass printed?"

Exactly these are the books written by the masters, it's a very small market. However these books will stand you in good stead for all of your life. Ask your parents to buy you one of these as a birthday present or .... I trust you have discussed doing pyro with them.

Yes, they know I have a burning interest in chemistry, and a little in pyro.
oh, don't worry i have suitable air/water tight containers to store these chems in. and i do have the right protection from chems as well.
taking your advice, i'll put these away until i can find something simpler to use them for, my interest in pyro may have been stopped, but my interest in chemistry goes on.

[Arthur Brown]

Having a sensible interest is one thing, and very positive. Making things without the knowledge is very stupid, and may well cost you body parts, liberty, or criminal record, any of which would impair your employment possibilities even more than the current economic situation.

[darkfang77]

Having a sensible interest is one thing, and very positive. Making things without the knowledge is very stupid, and may well cost you body parts, liberty, or criminal record, any of which would impair your employment possibilities even more than the current economic situation.

Erm, don't mean to be arrogant, or anything, but I did start this topic so I could learn more about it before making it.

And yes, I am aware of the risks, I had a good think before I invested in my first batch of pyro chems,

Edited by darkfang77, 11 August 2010 - 06:37 PM.

[dr thrust]

what chems have you got?, do you have barium nitrate,strontium nitrate, aluminum?

Edited by chris m, 11 August 2010 - 06:42 PM.

[darkfang77]

what chems have you got?, do you have barium nitrate,strontium nitrate, aluminum?

I have (prices put in just to see whether you think i'm being ripped off)

• KNO3 (£4.30/kg)
• Sulphur (can't remember how much)
• Charcoal (homemade, probably airfloat)
• Copper Sulphate (£3-5/kg)
• Atomized Al 250 mesh
• Potassium Perchlorate (v.expensive, cost me something like over £11/kg, probably won't be buying again)
• Magnesium (mixed meshs, ranging from 30 mesh to really small particles like 100 mesh)
• Some visco fuse (bought at a super pricey price £1.1/metre)

I did think about purchasing some barium and strontium compounds but at the time, they didn't seem worth it to me.