65 replies to this topic

[starseeker]

I have (prices put in just to see whether you think i'm being ripped off)

• KNO3 (£4.30/kg)
• Sulphur (can't remember how much)
• Charcoal (homemade, probably airfloat)
• Copper Sulphate (£3-5/kg)
• Atomized Al 250 mesh
• Potassium Perchlorate (v.expensive, cost me something like over £11/kg, probably won't be buying again)
• Magnesium (mixed meshs, ranging from 30 mesh to really small particles like 100 mesh)
• Some visco fuse (bought at a super pricey price £1.1/metre)

I did think about purchasing some barium and strontium compounds but at the time, they didn't seem worth it to me.

Why not start by making a simple fountain,you have the necessary chems, great fun and a much safer place to start.

[dr thrust]

put the flare project on hold for a while dear,without barium,and strontium "compounds" youll be hard pressed to make, white,green or red flares

[seymour]

put the flare project on hold for a while dear,without barium,and strontium "compounds" you'll be hard pressed to make, white,green or red flares

Green and red, certainly.

I also agree that the BEST white flare may be Barium nitrate based, but it's rubbish that you cannot make one without them.

How about the composition 'Darkfang's White flare 2010'

60 Magnesium, -30#
30 Potassium nitrate
10 Charcoal

Darkfang, A flare basically is indeed a chokeless fountain.

As for the ionised gasses not harming you... The ionised gasses are the flame. As such, you should be able to keep your hands out of them! Occasionally though, it is normal for us pyros to be 'bitten' by ionised gasses. I've certainly had a few burns.

What everyone has said about Magnesium needing coating in order for it not to react is true. However, if you want to make a flare and light it THAT DAY, then it should be fine, if you keep it dry.. Whilst it is true that uncoated magnesium in compositions can heat up to the point of ignition, this happens in the presence of moisture, and is not as rampant a phenomena as many people may make it appear to be.

If this does happen, there will be a while beforehand when the composition builds up heat and stinks of ammonia. If this happens, dump it in a bucket of water. However, I see it as quite unlikely that this will occur in a small dry batch, if only stored for a few hours.

Many people have assumed that you intend to hold the flare. This may be true, however I will not go so far as downright assuming this. However, if this is your plan, I suggest that you do not do that for a while, and CERTAINLY not the first flare you make. Stick it in the ground like a fountain and see how it is like that.

I personally sincerely appreciate your honesty, and your dedication to 'asking first'. This shows a level of safety that relatively few of us have.

Back to the flare...

If you have linseed oil, coat the magnesium with that before use. If you do this, don't worry about storing the flare, since it will be stable for a long, long time.

When it comes to consolidating the composition in the tube, it should be pressed all the way, not rammed. If you don't have a press, in this situation, pressing using hand pressure should suffice.


I am going to be daring and say that I do not think that you should stop pyro. Certainly good books are a very useful. However, I did pyro for a few years before my first book, and I'm confident that that is perfectly normal (if unideal).

I think you have a good and safe attitude. You ask lots of questions (unfortunately people often fail to answer them, or discourage you) but you should be strong, and keep asking questions.

For every question you ask, you should read a lot. There is a lot of info on the internet, and a lot of disinformation. If you read and read, you will in the end be able to weed out the fact from the fiction. Just take everything with a pinch of salt.

When you make compositions, and devices, be aware that they can go wrong. This is an attitude that you should take with you for the rest of your life, but at the stage that you are at now, it is especially important. If you make a mistake, and your 'gentle fairy dust fountain' goes off like a salute, it's ok, because you were standing well back, right? As others have said, include the factor of other people in to this. Set things off where they won't annoy people too much.

I personally think, that since you have an interest in chemistry, you should go and find out WHY you should not mix Potassium chlorate with Ammonium perchlorate, or how Nitrates can react with Aluminium and what you can do to prevent it from occurring.

With this knowledge you will be able to get past lots of rules that you follow but do not understand, and will get to a stage where you have an intimate understanding of your chemicals, and you will find that many rules people throw around are PURE CRAP!

Lastly, I will go back to literature, and say what every other passfire member will agree with. Join Passfire. It costs less that even one of the books that people (rightfully) suggest to you. It is undoubtedly the single best source for information on making fireworks that there is. It is practical, clear, and wide reaching. It does cost money, but if you are unsure, take the trial package. Be aware that in that, you only get to see perhaps 4% of the website.



PS, your chemical prices are not 'dirt cheap', but they do not seem unreasonable. Other than the visco, I don't think that you were ripped off.

Good luck.

Peace.

Stay green.

Edited by seymour, 11 August 2010 - 10:31 PM.

[crystal palace fireworks]

Erm, don't mean to be arrogant, or anything, but I did start this topic so I could learn more about it before making it.

And yes, I am aware of the risks, I had a good think before I invested in my first batch of pyro chems,

It is a requirement for publishers to legally deposit all books at 6 major UK libraries for the benfit of public knowledge.

You should be able to view any good firework book at either of the following libraries, although you may have to purchase a reading ticket.

British Library - London
National Library of Scotland in Edinburgh
" " Wales in Aberystwyth
The Bodleian Library in Oxford
University Library in Cambridge
Library of Trinity College Dublin

[dr thrust]

didn't say you couldn't make one i said you'd be hard pressed to make one, he can make a perc based one, with the chems he has, but i was concerned , with him mixing perc and magnesium, as it seems he hasn't got a (jar of glue) .clue
i wanted to know what chems he had for a reason, because i was at least hoping he had barium nitrate, as i could of hooked him up with a very simple three part yet very very bright flare comp hand pressed into a card tube, which essentially is what was wanted

Edited by chris m, 12 August 2010 - 04:13 PM.

[pyrotrev]

Well said Seymour. Whilst we need to make sure folk do things safely, we must not forget the UKPS exists to encourage interest in Pyrotechnics/Fireworks and hence we should try and help "newbies" as much as possible. Darkfang, do keep at it; this subject has come up on this forum before (e.g. http://www.pyrosocie...flare-formulas/) do a search or two and you might come up with something. Do treat your magnesium before mixing as suggested, a small bottle of linseed oil is pretty affordable and the peace of mind alone is worth it.

Edited by pyrotrev, 13 August 2010 - 12:53 PM.

[darkfang77]

Why not start by making a simple fountain,you have the necessary chems, great fun and a much safer place to start.

I have made a fountain before, and whilst it was great, I wanted to try something a bit brighter, i.e, magnesium flare

put the flare project on hold for a while dear,without barium,and strontium "compounds" youll be hard pressed to make, white,green or red flares

I'm only interested in doing a pure white flare at the moment, green and red flares I'm leaving until my next order of pyro supplies.
Surely a magnesium flare would burn white? What would strontium or barium compounds do except make it red and green respectively?

Green and red, certainly.

I also agree that the BEST white flare may be Barium nitrate based, but it's rubbish that you cannot make one without them.

How about the composition 'Darkfang's White flare 2010'

60 Magnesium, -30#
30 Potassium nitrate
10 Charcoal

Darkfang, A flare basically is indeed a chokeless fountain.

As for the ionised gasses not harming you... The ionised gasses are the flame. As such, you should be able to keep your hands out of them! Occasionally though, it is normal for us pyros to be 'bitten' by ionised gasses. I've certainly had a few burns.

What everyone has said about Magnesium needing coating in order for it not to react is true. However, if you want to make a flare and light it THAT DAY, then it should be fine, if you keep it dry.. Whilst it is true that uncoated magnesium in compositions can heat up to the point of ignition, this happens in the presence of moisture, and is not as rampant a phenomena as many people may make it appear to be.

If this does happen, there will be a while beforehand when the composition builds up heat and stinks of ammonia. If this happens, dump it in a bucket of water. However, I see it as quite unlikely that this will occur in a small dry batch, if only stored for a few hours.

Many people have assumed that you intend to hold the flare. This may be true, however I will not go so far as downright assuming this. However, if this is your plan, I suggest that you do not do that for a while, and CERTAINLY not the first flare you make. Stick it in the ground like a fountain and see how it is like that.

I personally sincerely appreciate your honesty, and your dedication to 'asking first'. This shows a level of safety that relatively few of us have.

Back to the flare...

If you have linseed oil, coat the magnesium with that before use. If you do this, don't worry about storing the flare, since it will be stable for a long, long time.

When it comes to consolidating the composition in the tube, it should be pressed all the way, not rammed. If you don't have a press, in this situation, pressing using hand pressure should suffice.

I am going to be daring and say that I do not think that you should stop pyro. Certainly good books are a very useful. However, I did pyro for a few years before my first book, and I'm confident that that is perfectly normal (if unideal).

I think you have a good and safe attitude. You ask lots of questions (unfortunately people often fail to answer them, or discourage you) but you should be strong, and keep asking questions.

For every question you ask, you should read a lot. There is a lot of info on the internet, and a lot of disinformation. If you read and read, you will in the end be able to weed out the fact from the fiction. Just take everything with a pinch of salt.

When you make compositions, and devices, be aware that they can go wrong. This is an attitude that you should take with you for the rest of your life, but at the stage that you are at now, it is especially important. If you make a mistake, and your 'gentle fairy dust fountain' goes off like a salute, it's ok, because you were standing well back, right? As others have said, include the factor of other people in to this. Set things off where they won't annoy people too much.

I personally think, that since you have an interest in chemistry, you should go and find out WHY you should not mix Potassium chlorate with Ammonium perchlorate, or how Nitrates can react with Aluminium and what you can do to prevent it from occurring.

With this knowledge you will be able to get past lots of rules that you follow but do not understand, and will get to a stage where you have an intimate understanding of your chemicals, and you will find that many rules people throw around are PURE CRAP!

Lastly, I will go back to literature, and say what every other passfire member will agree with. Join Passfire. It costs less that even one of the books that people (rightfully) suggest to you. It is undoubtedly the single best source for information on making fireworks that there is. It is practical, clear, and wide reaching. It does cost money, but if you are unsure, take the trial package. Be aware that in that, you only get to see perhaps 4% of the website.

PS, your chemical prices are not 'dirt cheap', but they do not seem unreasonable. Other than the visco, I don't think that you were ripped off.

Good luck.

Peace.

Stay green.

Thank you a lot for that reply, seymour, it gives me hope that I am ready for pyro, even if I am a little short on the literature side of things. I am reading the "flares and torches" section of Weingart's book of "Pyrotechnics" 2nd ed., he states that a flare should have a wooden handle "approx 6 inches", at the end to facilitate holding, he does not, however, explain how to stop the flare from bursting into flames, I will need to look into it further. I do not intend to actually hold the flare, but I do intend to be able to fix it into place above the ground for best effects.
As for the formula, far from me to argue with a experienced pyro user, but is there enough oxidiser to balance the magnesium? And would Sulphur benefit the composition by reducing ignition temperature? And would a BP primer be needed to set this off?

Weingart also states in his book of pyrotechnics that it would be advisable to mix >10% of sawdust/flour to "bulken" the composition and to reduce costs, etc.
He doesn't actually state the magic number but if what he says is true, then should the formula be something like this:

"darkfang's flare"

60 Magnesium, -30#
30 Potassium nitrate
10 Charcoal

+15-20% bulker sawdust

What is your opinion on this?

didn't say you couldn't make one i said you'd be hard pressed to make one, he can make a perc based one, with the chems he has, but i was concerned , with him mixing perc and magnesium, as it seems he hasn't got a (jar of glue) .clue
i wanted to know what chems he had for a reason, because i was at least hoping he had barium nitrate, as i could of hooked him up with a very simple three part yet very very bright flare comp hand pressed into a card tube, which essentially is what was wanted

I do have a jar of glue, albeit a small one, but please, if you do have a perc based composition, tell us all!
I could certainly do with a few more options!
The only reservations I have with using perc is its price. KNO3 only costs me £4.30 a kilo but KClO4 puts me back over £11 a kilo, this is why I wanted to ask first, see what is doable.
This might be pure speculation, but isn't barium a highly toxic compound? Yes, I do have appropriate safety gear (nitrile gloves, anti-static spray, goggles) but surely, in your opinion, I should be leaning off the toxic and dangerous compounds in case I hurt myself?

Sorry if this post is too big, for some reason, this site is experiencing some sort of problem : it loads one second, then the connection is reset the next and I can't preview my posts.
I had to try four times just to get this post out!

[dr thrust]

ill hold back with the perc formula at the mo, as its not far off mag flash
but heres another pot nitrate one , kno3 71, mg 29 , bind with boiled, thats important boiled linseed oil.
barium nitrate can used both as a green color agent and a oxidizer, functions as a green color agent when burned in the presence of a chlorine donor ( parlon for example) from th formation of BaC1+
burns white with oxygen creating Bao,.. hmm think thats right,, anyways wiengart uses it for a 1 millon candle power flare

[darkfang77]

ill hold back with the perc formula at the mo, as its not far off mag flash
but heres another pot nitrate one , kno3 71, mg 29 , bind with boiled, thats important boiled linseed oil.
barium nitrate can used both as a green color agent and a oxidizer, functions as a green color agent when burned in the presence of a chlorine donor ( parlon for example) from th formation of BaC1+
burns white with oxygen creating Bao,.. hmm think thats right,, anyways wiengart uses it for a 1 millon candle power flare

71% KNO3
29% MG

This formula doesn't seem very sophisticated, any way we could slow down the burn rate to increase the duration of the flare?

[dr thrust]

my apologies for the simple formula
how about this ( white aircraft flare #1)
39.25% barium nitrate
6.5% ali flake
37.06% magnesium
10% sodium sodium oxalate
2.68% wax
.975% castor oil
.975% linseed oil

white aircraft flare #2
38% barium nitrate
14% ali powder
38% kno3
6% magnesium
4% graphite
4% linseed oil




you haven't got many chems, so its not going to be sophisticated, anyways thats the formula the linseed oil will slow it down,fine candle wax, shellac,resins,linseed oil, castor oil,charcoal can be added.. why dont you try them out and post the results?
theres no substitute for practical experimentation.
for example there was a discussion on potassium sorbate as a whistle burst i asked the question could it be used as a whistling rocket propellant and the was lots of hmm no, hmm maybe, so i went and designed the tooling built the motor and proved it could work, there you go practical experimentation

Edited by chris m, 13 August 2010 - 08:24 PM.

[seymour]

Not only do Barium compounds make green with chlorine, and white without, they are used in firefly and glitter compositions.

As for the formula, far from me to argue with a experienced pyro user, but is there enough oxidiser to balance the magnesium? And would Sulphur benefit the composition by reducing ignition temperature? And would a BP primer be needed to set this off?

You are absolutely right, there is not enough oxidiser to burn all the magnesium.

However in this situation I decided that that is ideal, since you would get a large quantity of magnesium gas in the flame which would burn on contact with the air, essentially expanding the size of the flame, and therefore brightness.

These will probably not light with a black powder prime. Usually I light these kinds of compositions with a colour star mixture, since I always have scraps left over from cutting stars ect lying around, and it is convenient.It's probably overkill too.

Generally greenmix is a better choice for priming, since it leaves behind more bubbly, molten crap, which when in contact with the surface of what you want to light, does so more effectively. However you might want to add some magnesium to this to get it to burn hotter. Even better, you could just make up the D1 glitter formula and prime with that. The dross from that can be very hot and sticky!

Sulfur could be a good additive. Perhaps replace half the charcoal with it (which I threw in largely to increase ignitability anyway).

71% KNO3
29% MG

This formula doesn't seem very sophisticated, any way we could slow down the burn rate to increase the duration of the flare?

As Chris M suggested, there are all sorts of additives that work. It seems that you have matched the magnesium and Potassium nitrate in the ratios for a complete reaction. This is exactly what you want for an explosive, or to produce a clear flame for a colour, but in this situation it is working against you. Since you want a lot of light, you don't need an efficient initial reaction. Secondly, as you have found out, it will burn very fast. Thirdly, it has the worrying potential to go 'boom'.

Having said that, so does the formula that I provided, and so do many formulas, (such as Perchlorate/Aluminium silver stars).

Essentially we are modifying flash here. Anything we can do to lessen the risks such as using coarse metals, and a huge excess of fuels is a good thing for avoiding an explosive failure, and the excess fuel, will, in this situation boost performance.

It could be relevant to throw this video in here...

Those waterfalls were quite likely based on Potassium perchlorate and Aluminium. Like the flare you are making, the only difference would be an excess of fuel, larger particle size, and some additives (binders ect).

[darkfang77]

my apologies for the simple formula
how about this ( white aircraft flare #1)
39.25% barium nitrate
6.5% ali flake
37.06% magnesium
10% sodium sodium oxalate
2.68% wax
.975% castor oil
.975% linseed oil

white aircraft flare #2
38% barium nitrate
14% ali powder
38% kno3
6% magnesium
4% graphite
4% linseed oil
you haven't got many chems, so its not going to be sophisticated, anyways thats the formula the linseed oil will slow it down,fine candle wax, shellac,resins,linseed oil, castor oil,charcoal can be added.. why dont you try them out and post the results?
theres no substitute for practical experimentation.
for example there was a discussion on potassium sorbate as a whistle burst i asked the question could it be used as a whistling rocket propellant and the was lots of hmm no, hmm maybe, so i went and designed the tooling built the motor and proved it could work, there you go practical experimentation

OK, that put me in my place, I think after a bit more research, I should put together a list of the chems I should purchase before furthering this.

These will probably not light with a black powder prime. Usually I light these kinds of compositions with a colour star mixture, since I always have scraps left over from cutting stars ect lying around, and it is convenient.It's probably overkill too.
Generally greenmix is a better choice for priming, since it leaves behind more bubbly, molten crap, which when in contact with the surface of what you want to light, does so more effectively. However you might want to add some magnesium to this to get it to burn hotter. Even better, you could just make up the D1 glitter formula and prime with that. The dross from that can be very hot and sticky!
Sulfur could be a good additive. Perhaps replace half the charcoal with it (which I threw in largely to increase ignitability anyway).

Thanks again for these pointers, for this flare, I will try to make a very thick cardboard tube to protect it from blowing into flames as it did in my fountain experiments. I am thinking something along the lines of 1/3 inch thickness, your thoughts? I won't use BP for the primer as you say, unfortunately I don't have any scrap star mixture, perhaps I could mix some BP with some Al and Mg and lay it on top as a primer? My thinking is that the molten Mg in the BP would set off the flare, similar to a chain reaction. I doubt flash powder would do the job would losing fingers.

Also, as Weingart suggested, I will need a bulking agent to "increase burning time", are there any bulkers you can suggest which create as little smoke as possible for the amount? I'm thinking sawdust, or flour
And what is the maximum upper limit for the bulking agent? 20%?

Edited by darkfang77, 13 August 2010 - 10:50 PM.

[dr thrust]

the linseed oil, Castor oil, paraffin wax,shellac have a crucial role not only as a binder, water proofer in naval flares ect but also as a desensitizer, because most are closely linked to flash comps, a few comps call for mixed particle sizes which slows down the reaction, ho forgot Vaseline as a binder from the famous weingart 1 million candle power flare.
barium nitrate 38
mixed aluminum 9
sulfur 2
vaseline 1
i made one you can see it, 1.23 mins into the vid, very hot it ignited pyro at the side of it lol weingart flare

[darkfang77]

i made one you can see it, 1.23 mins into the vid, very hot it ignited pyro at the side of it lol weingart flare

Jeez, way too much smoke in that mixture. What was the amount you used man? Even a 50/50 ratio of KNO3 and sugar doesn't produce that much smoke.

[dr thrust]

yep needs tweaking id say, but a flare is supposed to get you noticed lol, it did burn for a while but the vid was edited, guess it wasn't that exciting
sigh, its not often you can try such things out.
i used about 80g pressed in a 35mm card tube, very messy to make,
the prime was tiger tail with mixed ali,and a boric acid buffer, ignited it with a silver flying fish fuse, these are the hottest i believe.
weingarts starting fire
barium nitrate 4
kno3 3
sulfur 1
shellac 1