67 replies to this topic

[crystal palace fireworks]

If we cater for diwali then we may aswel cater for all religious celebrations and wait for it we can have eid to! but we cant, its all one sided per usual. A lot of places are now starting to do virtual bonfire and firework displays making our tradition more watered down .

I hear you, only this week there was a report that the 2012 olympic committee are thinking of virtual displays, but don`t be too down, the UKPS are fighting back on many fronts,....the more people who join us, the bigger voice we will have, and the better we will be able to fund many campaigns to maintain and promote our firework heritage & the future of its science.

[Rocky Raccoon]

Excellent stuff Rocky, care to elaborate?, Id like to know more!

Last week, I sent a reply to my MP with some follow-up questions for the minister of tourism & Heritage (he`s the head honcho).

Basically my MP is on my side (bit of a traditionalist himself), Im trying to get the minister to explain some of the details regarding his opposition for us (the UK) not joining.

Failing that, there are a few more options.

what specifically would you like me to elaborate on ^^

The main thing with Bonfire Night is that - if people follow the firework code, and simply use some common sense - Bonfire Night is a safe and fun event for the whole family.. governments can wrap their countries up in cotton wool, but ultimately if they did that for everything - none of us would be allowed to drive - as its dangerous to travel at speeds over 4 miles per hour

[Rocky Raccoon]

I hear you, only this week there was a report that the 2012 olympic committee are thinking of virtual displays, but don`t be too down, the UKPS are fighting back on many fronts,....the more people who join us, the bigger voice we will have, and the better we will be able to fund many campaigns to maintain and promote our firework heritage & the future of its science.

that reminds me .. i need to print out the application form... ^^

[crystal palace fireworks]

what specifically would you like me to elaborate on ^^

The main thing with Bonfire Night is that - if people follow the firework code, and simply use some common sense - Bonfire Night is a safe and fun event for the whole family.. governments can wrap their countries up in cotton wool, but ultimately if they did that for everything - none of us would be allowed to drive - as its dangerous to travel at speeds over 4 miles per hour

Im curious to know more about the system you developed which is used in 1000 schools.

Edited by crystal palace fireworks, 08 November 2010 - 09:46 AM.

[Arthur Brown]

Perhaps a quality and nearly complete report on the firework and bonfire traditions of the UK would be a worthy project for the Society to collate from written submissions from the members of both the forum and the society.

We should consider the life of an activity already existing to consider whether 50 or 100 or 200 years makes it "Trad"

AFAIK fireworks for entertainment were basically the artillery artificers making novelties for the senior officers and the King in the middle ages, -they had BP by the barrel full and could make rockets, squibs and fountains with ease.

We have to be careful that "going to the shop for something made in PRC" isn't really trad at all, in fact while the Chinese have always been good at fireworks, we in the UK used to have a major fireworks manufacturing industry. Most of the UK fireworks names that we remember and cherish were makers -Wilders Astra, Brocks etc, now what still exists of these is simply branding applied to imported material.

Is anyone on the forum sufficiently knowledgeable about the Lewes and Bridgewater traditions to write or find the book on the subject of these local traditions?

[Peret]

It used to be a really, really big thing. Some early accounts of November 5th celebrations, quoted in Brock's History of Fireworks, 1949 ...

"In former times in London, the burning of the effigy of Guy Fawkes on the 5th of November was a most important and portentous ceremony. The bonfire in Lincolns Inn Fields was conducted on an especially magnificent scale. Two hundred cartloads of fuel would sometimes be consumed in the feeding of this single fire, while upwards of thirty 'Guys' would be suspended on gibbets and committed to the flames. Another tremendous pile was heaped up by the butchers in Clare Market ... The uproar, throughout the town ... the ringing of the bells ... and the the uproar which prevailed, can but faintly be imagined by an individual of the present day."
(Chambers, The Book of Days, 1864)

"The 'Papal Aggression' of 1850 gave a new direction to the genius of 5th of November. Instead of Guy Fawkes, the figure of Cardinal Wiseman, then recently created Bishop of Westminster by the Pope, was solemnly burned in effigy in London."
(ibid)

"By 10 o'clock, London was so lit up by bonfires and fireworks, that from the suburbs it was in one red heat. Many were the overthrows of horsemen and carriages, from the discharge of hand-rockets, and the pressure of moving mobs inflamed to violence by drink, and fighting their way against each other."
(Hone, The Everyday Book vol 1, 1826)

"The Rev. D. James, on November 5th, preached a sermon at St. Simon's Church in which he remarked that Protestantism was full of light, and that children should be allowed to burn their bonfires, and that rockets, blue lights and roman candles should be let off on that day to commemorate the event from generation to generation. The security, as well as the permanence of their religion depends on such observances."
Liverpool Mail, Nov 6 1846

[Rocky Raccoon]

Im curious to know more about the system you developed which is used in 1000 schools.

will move to IM to save going off topic


-- But yeah.. i wish i could have seen the november 5th celebrations through history .. if only there were hot dogs back then it'd have been perfect

[crystal palace fireworks]

will move to IM to save going off topic


-- But yeah.. i wish i could have seen the november 5th celebrations through history .. if only there were hot dogs back then it'd have been perfect

The various sussex bonfire celebrations are probably worth a visit.

Im a sausage man myself (not literally),....I couldn`t bare seeing a little pooch bain maried

[crystal palace fireworks]

Ok chaps, here`s another reply from the minister for tourism and heritage - John Penrose MP, regarding British Bonfire Night and Intangible Cultural Heritage.

I quote;

This is a full list of examples of protected traditions on the UNESCO website (http://www.unesco.or...lture/ich/index) from those states that have ratified its Intangible Cultural Convension. Examples of these traditions include very rare languages only spoken by small groups, and certain crafts only practised by a small number of people.
From this it can be seen that inscription on the list of the Convention would usally imply that the listed item was in danger of disappearence and required protection.
I am glad that the 5 November Bonfire Night traditions in the UK are in no way endangered and have no need of legislative protection, either domestically or from international organisations such as UNESCO!

Unquote.

The question is, does he have a point?, or are our November 5th bonfire night traditions in real decline?

Does anyone have stats/or other information to fight our cause?

Edited by crystal palace fireworks, 20 November 2010 - 08:04 AM.

[Maxim]

Thank-you CPF for posting this topic, i too believe it is a very important issue we must address and not hope that it will just blow over...

Firstly, Starsky72, CPF did not intend to attack the Diwali celebrations, but merely mentioned (with justifiable evidence) that our traditional celebrations are losing the competition against the Diwali celebrations which are not an English tradition. Therefore I support CPF's opinion that OUR ENGLISH traditions should not lose favour, especially ones that have been celebrated for such a long period of time.

I am more than happy to support this issue and would like to inform CPF that i would be ready to help him and anyone else who is a true pyrotechnic, to raise awareness and/or communicate with governing bodies to show them that there is strong opposition.

[crystal palace fireworks]

Thank-you CPF for posting this topic, i too believe it is a very important issue we must address and not hope that it will just blow over...

Firstly, Starsky72, CPF did not intend to attack the Diwali celebrations, but merely mentioned (with justifiable evidence) that our traditional celebrations are losing the competition against the Diwali celebrations which are not an English tradition. Therefore I support CPF's opinion that OUR ENGLISH traditions should not lose favour, especially ones that have been celebrated for such a long period of time.

I am more than happy to support this issue and would like to inform CPF that i would be ready to help him and anyone else who is a true pyrotechnic, to raise awareness and/or communicate with governing bodies to show them that there is strong opposition.

Fantastic Maxim, thanks for your kind support!

Its seems clear that the minister is not going shift his stance on the ICH issues for the time being, but I still think there is scope for us pyrotechnists/enthusiasts to try and fight the cause on other fronts which are related to Nov 5th bonfire night/guy fawkes traditions.

For example; We dont see the `Penny for the Guy` activity on our streets today, why? (yet they still retail fireworks in shops today), should we not as a organisation or individuals be trying to do something about it!

Some months ago I made contact with various organisations to try and clarify if it was legal to carry out this activity (penny for the guy) today without incuring any legal comebacks from the met police and my local council with respect to collecting monies as individuals (children) for the purpose of purchasing fireworks through adults (over 18 and preferably parents) on there behalf,.....basically they couldn`t offer any advice because they din`t have the remit to offer advice, or could not find any legislation that was concrete enough to cover my enquiry, or to say yes or no as the case maybe.


In my opinion as far as I can see, there is no legislation in place that safeguards this activity today. To seek permission to collect monies legally in a public place (highway) only applies to registered charities that then have to apply for a license via either the chief of police in your area or one`s local council.

So my point is, should we not try to get the said charitable statute changed or updated to include sections for `not for profit` societies like ours to collect for good causes (that are not bonifida `registered charities`) freely and without incuring licensing costs (which would eat in to profits), and to allow children as individuals to collect monies freely & personally in the three weeks leading up to bonfire night for special cultural traditions like `penny for the guy`?.

[Peret]

Some months ago I made contact with various organisations to try and clarify if it was legal to carry out this activity (penny for the guy) today without incuring any legal comebacks from the met police and my local council with respect to collecting monies as individuals (children) for the purpose of purchasing fireworks through adults (over 18 and preferably parents) on there behalf,.....basically they couldn`t offer any advice because they din`t have the remit to offer advice, or could not find any legislation that was concrete enough to cover my enquiry, or to say yes or no as the case maybe.

I can't get used to this modern idea that seems to have taken hold, that everything is forbidden by default unless expressly permitted by some bureaucrat (and a license fee paid). Surely the answer to the question is implicit in the paragraph above, that if they can't find a law against it, it is not illegal. I'm sure that "guying" was always technically vagrancy or begging and I could have been thrown into the workhouse for numerous repeated offenses, but somehow I (and millions of others) got away with it.

[dogsbody]

Is anyone on the forum sufficiently knowledgeable about the Lewes and Bridgewater traditions to write or find the book on the subject of these local traditions?

Its Bridgwater in Somerset and Bridgewater in the North.....guess you are referring to the Somerset one? which tradition are you referring to the Squibbing after Bridgwater carnival or another?

[crystal palace fireworks]

I can't get used to this modern idea that seems to have taken hold, that everything is forbidden by default unless expressly permitted by some bureaucrat (and a license fee paid). Surely the answer to the question is implicit in the paragraph above, that if they can't find a law against it, it is not illegal. I'm sure that "guying" was always technically vagrancy or begging and I could have been thrown into the workhouse for numerous repeated offenses, but somehow I (and millions of others) got away with it.

Thanks Peret, no neither can I, its so sad that we are even discussing these issues.

Unfortunately we have become a society that has to attempt to check out what was was once an innocent activity out of fear of being prosecuted.

The licensing officer at my borough council has no objections to `Guying` (can`t find legislation under his remit to rule over it), basically his advice was if the police don`t mind this activity, then neither do we!

If i get time, Im going to make contact with my borough commander to see what he says.

Does anyone have kids at school on this forum?....... Im curious to know in the weeks leading up to guy fawkes night what (if any) they are being taught on any of the bonfire/guy fawkes traditions/history subjects.

[phildunford]

I'm pretty sure that the reasons guying has stopped are to do with other unwelcome changes in our society.

In a nutshell, would you want your 10 year old down the high street on their own, begging for money? Not many parents would take that kind of risk...

There could be ways to keep interest in guys going.

How about offering to do a free firework display for your local school. They hold a guy competition (art/ DT depts might be interested). You judge the competition & the winner gets to press the button to fire the display/ light the fire.

Fraught with difficulties, but you never know - any other ideas?