107 replies to this topic

[icarus]

Control of the sale of many chemicals is a necessity we should support . Many of us avoided death or mutilation at an early age despite the availability of certain weed killers etc. The difference between an experimental mixture or compound of less than 100g and a potentially lethal IED is only in quantity ,containment casing and mode /place of ignition . It all started when you first wondered what makes a firework go bang ,it then progessed to "i like big bangs can i make one???" . This is probably your most dangerous time -. very little knowledge - over enthusiasm - dangerously large devices- unsafe containment- poor fuses add to this list readilly available chemicals and now forgetting terrorism easy chemical availability would result in many deaths . Thankfully as we get older and possibly a little wiser having made a few loud bangs smoke and smells we take a far greater interest in manufacturing techniques . my early ambition was first to build model rocket motors and then to once more have available to me fireworks of the past lost over the years mainly due to their past misuse . Fireworks such as jumping jacks vto helicopters girandolas etc .I looked at my workshop with great concern .Littered with electronic and amateur radio equipment down one side and lockable steel cabinets of chemicals the other along with lab bench etc it had a remarkable resemblance to a terrorists lair .My first change was to limit the quantity of each stored chemical so that there wasnt enough chemical to produce a device of any significant size followed by a superb alarm system. I am totally open as to my location. and part time hobby in the hope i can easily be identified and not mistaken for a terrorist .Making chemicals prescribed items wont eliminate bomb and drug manufacture but anything that makes it more difficult for the scum involved in their manufacture has my full support.

[digger]

Control of the sale of many chemicals is a necessity we should support . Many of us avoided death or mutilation at an early age despite the availability of certain weed killers etc. The difference between an experimental mixture or compound of less than 100g and a potentially lethal IED is only in quantity ,containment casing and mode /place of ignition . It all started when you first wondered what makes a firework go bang ,it then progessed to "i like big bangs can i make one???" . This is probably your most dangerous time -. very little knowledge - over enthusiasm - dangerously large devices- unsafe containment- poor fuses add to this list readilly available chemicals and now forgetting terrorism easy chemical availability would result in many deaths . Thankfully as we get older and possibly a little wiser having made a few loud bangs smoke and smells we take a far greater interest in manufacturing techniques . my early ambition was first to build model rocket motors and then to once more have available to me fireworks of the past lost over the years mainly due to their past misuse . Fireworks such as jumping jacks vto helicopters girandolas etc .I looked at my workshop with great concern .Littered with electronic and amateur radio equipment down one side and lockable steel cabinets of chemicals the other along with lab bench etc it had a remarkable resemblance to a terrorists lair .My first change was to limit the quantity of each stored chemical so that there wasnt enough chemical to produce a device of any significant size followed by a superb alarm system. I am totally open as to my location. and part time hobby in the hope i can easily be identified and not mistaken for a terrorist .Making chemicals prescribed items wont eliminate bomb and drug manufacture but anything that makes it more difficult for the scum involved in their manufacture has my full support.

Interesting point of view Icarus. I don't disagree that we should be against terrorism. However this particular piece of legislation would do nothing at all to do that (how long would it take you to make a crude chlorate cell? 15 minutes from having the idea to it running?).

Regarding the supply of chemicals. It is already regulated to some degree and maybe more regulation is needed. However making it a legal requirement to have a licence for the procurement of this very limited range of chemicals seems rather pointless to say the least. If you took it to the extreme then you would have to have a licence to make circuit boards at home. Some of these chemicals are pretty nasty, but you can buy them in the high street at maplin no questions asked, not even your age!

How would you feel about having to fork out £500 - £1000 to have yourself and your premises vetted just so you can experiment with 10grams of a pyrotechnic composition which is currently legal under the MSER regulations? Do you think that it may stifle the experimental spirit that made Britain once great?

I only say this as I know you are a fellow eccentric who likes to go down to the shed and invent things. How would you feel if you had to get a licence for every thing you wanted to try out. Hey a flame projector is more dangerous than most compositions under the 100gram rule. Should we make it illegal to make flame projectors without a licence because the technology could be subverted for the manufacture of a flame thrower that a terrorist might want to use possibly maybe.

What about regulating the building of electronic enciphering devices or timers as they could be used by a terrorist?

You get the drift. Why let the terrorist win by having our freedoms unnecessarily curtailed.

I am pretty sure that I am able to determine the risk I am taking when I go and invent something. I don't need the state to tell me what I know and don't know.

Don't let the state be lazy by effectively just banning everything. It is an expensive way of not being effective at tackling the cause.

As one of my mentors once said to me "find the cause, don't treat the symptom". If you mitigate the cause there is no need to treat the symptoms as they simply go away.

Edited by digger, 14 October 2010 - 09:46 AM.

[phildunford]

Very eloquent D...

I suppose I have no fundamental objection to licensing dangerous things (poisons, cars etc.) as long as those who need the licences can get them & at a reasonable cost.

The problem is, that the 'Sheddist' (love that term) will not be seen as a suitable person - despite the fact that we have a strong tradition of inventing & experimenting in our sheds - & have sometimes even made important discoveries. Even if we don't make important discoveries, where would the government rather I was, tinkering harmlessly in my shed or out in the wide world getting into trouble?

[starseeker]

What is to stop the terrorist raiding a farm for his An,or raiding a hair dressing warehouse for his hydrogen peroxide.
If they bring these laws in people will still need these items for legitimate use,so the terrorist will just steal it!

[Potassium chlorate]

What is to stop the terrorist raiding a farm for his An,or raiding a hair dressing warehouse for his hydrogen peroxide.
If they bring these laws in people will still need these items for legitimate use,so the terrorist will just steal it!

Ay, there's the rub!

The little drawback with laws is that the criminals don't give a shit, especially not terrorists. Even if things are banned and there is a capital punishment for possession, they will still be available to the wrong people.

The Russian mafia actually exported drugs from the Soviet Union....

Laws mainly concern law-abiding people. The bad guys do their thing anyway.

[icarus]

what I am in favour of is the keeping of a register of names and addresses of a persons purchasing chemicals much like the old poisons book you had to sign . This would not stop you from buying chemicals .It would however make you more accountable . I keep a log of chemicals used in each test . Hundreds of pages now in length ,.i believe this to be documentary evidence of my competency to continue amateur research . The flame projectors are challenging to build and operate safely . but progressing well . Open accountability , accurate documentation and a safe working environment showing compliance with mser etc is the only way we will improve access to our hobby

[Arthur Brown]

What worries me most is that when pot nitrate goes, so will bacon, and bacon sandwiches. meat is cured in a mix of salt and saltpetre, without pot nitrate it doesn't cure and there is no bacon

Like the gun laws people with a reasonable use will have great difficulty getting them and people outside the law will have no problem!

[phildunford]

and there is no bacon

I have seen the suggestion of many terrible things on this forum, but the loss of bacon would cause life to loose all meaning...

Edited by phildunford, 14 October 2010 - 09:15 PM.

[maxman]

What worries me most is that when pot nitrate goes, so will bacon, and bacon sandwiches. meat is cured in a mix of salt and saltpetre, without pot nitrate it doesn't cure and there is no bacon

Like the gun laws people with a reasonable use will have great difficulty getting them and people outside the law will have no problem!

Just rincing some bacon off under the tap to make some touchpaper solution

Maxman

[whoof]

I have seen the suggestion of many terrible things on this forum, but the loss of bacon would cause life to loose all meaning...

And there are certain terrorist groups who would hail the loss of bacon as a triumph for the cause.!

[crystal palace fireworks]

What worries me most is that when pot nitrate goes, so will bacon, and bacon sandwiches. meat is cured in a mix of salt and saltpetre, without pot nitrate it doesn't cure and there is no bacon

Like the gun laws people with a reasonable use will have great difficulty getting them and people outside the law will have no problem!

Bacon & saltpetre = no problem Arthur, I have a few contacts down at Smithfields. do you like salt beef?

[Andrew]

This was debated within the UK government in October last year.

Link to proceedings

Does anyone know if this has progressed any further since November last year?

The UK Gov want to go along by the looks of things. They actually asked to make this more difficult that was initially proposed.

As questions are being asked there is still time to present as stakeholders in this to at least seek assurances that licences will not be unduly difficult to get hold of. Also do they see using the 100g rule in MSER as a "legitimate use"???

[Richard H]

This does not appear to be at a stage of public or otherwise consultation. As and when it is - and assuming we make ground in the ELR, then of course we would be making similar representations on behalf of the membership.

[Maxim]

Having read all of this I just give a big sigh. The EU council will have to realise (i shall once again reiterate as many members have previously mentioned) that if you ban any of those chemicals, they can be made via other precursors, some that we use every day and are essential to life. I writhe in jealousy when i read those old fashioned 19th century chemistry articles and hear stories that my senior chemistry teacher tells me about things "back in the day". The psychology just seems so different. Yes we live in a time when terror seems to occur everywhere but at the same time, HSE is making live more and more dull. The reason? I shall leave you all with one of the wisest quotes my chemistry teacher has ever said:

"Unfortunately, we live in a time where nobody knows anything about anything and everybody is scared of everything"

[Peret]

Having read all of this I just give a big sigh. The EU council will have to realise (i shall once again reiterate as many members have previously mentioned) that if you ban any of those chemicals, they can be made via other precursors, some that we use every day and are essential to life. I writhe in jealousy when i read those old fashioned 19th century chemistry articles and hear stories that my senior chemistry teacher tells me about things "back in the day". The psychology just seems so different. Yes we live in a time when terror seems to occur everywhere but at the same time, HSE is making live more and more dull. The reason? I shall leave you all with one of the wisest quotes my chemistry teacher has ever said:

"Unfortunately, we live in a time where nobody knows anything about anything and everybody is scared of everything"

It is psychology, and the psychological exercise is being carried out on YOU at your expense by people who profit from it in one way or another. Life is no more dangerous today than it was fifty years ago. What has changed is the character of government. The Triumph of the Political Classes lays it all out quite clearly. As for banning chemicals, when did prohibiting anything prevent people from getting it? The prohibition of handguns in Britain doesn't seem to have bothered the bad guys, other than inconveniencing them to the extent they have to call and have a weapon brought to them.

I'm afraid that changing the direction things are going will need much more muscle behind it than this or any other special interest group can achieve. It will need a large-scale political awakening and uprising of millions of people to turn it back now.

Edited by Peret, 01 May 2011 - 08:55 PM.