107 replies to this topic

[digger]

P.S. The drug precursor list has a little of a different bias as most of the items on it (top section) are particularly difficult to make in the shed at the bottom of the garden, unlike those on this list.

I can also think of a few others that should be on the drug precursor list (and are in most other countries around the world)

[darkfang77]

There is a strong possibility that the suspicion was not of bomb making but of drug precursors.

This link will take you the SOCA site page that has a further link to a spreadsheet of precursor chemicals related to drug making -

http://www.soca.gov....icals-wallchart

This link also to the SOCA site gives a further link to a guidance flow chart that advises when the authorities should be informed -

http://www.soca.gov....-cct-flow-chart

Ahh got them, the list is very unrelevant to me tbh, the only thing I relevant to pyro are acetone for CIA BP making and potassium permanganate for dangerous flashes or athlete's foot. Sulphuric and hydrochloric are already on there.
This is quite un-logical for SOCA - acetone, sulphuric acid and hydrochloric acid are already freely available off eBay in laboratory grade, I doubt the seller would report ever other person buying it. Even if terrorists wanted to get all three from the seller without arousing suspicion - they can always use multiple accounts.
Potassium permanganate otoh, is harder to get, but I know already know people who sell it anyways. Very un-logical.

Interesting and emotive thread.

In reply to darkfang. There is no requirement for a supplier to have any licence as far as I am aware for the chemicals that we require. I guess this will not change with this regulation as it would appear to apply to the end user. However I would hope that all suppliers do their due diligence regardless of their status, lets face it we don't want unsupervised children and idiots getting hold of certain items let alone terrorists.

Regarding the proposed legislation, mmmmmmm. I am not against regulation if it is sensible. However I feel in this particular case it would unfairly prohibit many from a number of hobbies. Not because they would not be able to get a licence, but because currently most of the items on the list are relatively cheap due to market forces. The cost of the licence and policing it I guess would be reassuringly expensive for those who only have a few pounds to spend on a little experimentation due to the cost of government bodies.

I am of the opinion that the regulation would have absolutely no effect on the ability of a determined terrorist to manufacture improvised explosives. It may make it a little more difficult for the old style IRA huge ANFO devices to be quickly put together. But lets face it the Palestinians manage to build thousands of rockets to fire at Israel and I would guess that prohibition of chemicals in the Gaza strip is far far more extreme than this legislation would be able to produce.

The current terrorist trend is for small devices to be deployed to maximum effect in busy places. Lets face it a great many people who frequent this forum would be able able to produce the chemicals for one of these from foodstuffs given a bit of thought and manufacture of some basic equipment!!!!

So in my opinion this legislation would do nothing to stop a terrorist. Lets face it if you were going to mount an attack then would you buy your stocks from chemicals R us?

The only course of action against these types is good intelligence, and even then that may not stop the determined individual with a cause.

Question: why did they raid that house to begin with? Surely the visiting officer would have relayed the situation back to the police or something.
It doesn't quite make sense to me, that operation would have cost loads of resources, aren't the army/police supposed to be tracking down the real criminals? Like the mentioned IRA? =S

Why is the proposal not being shot down? Surely if most of us think that it won't change the situation a single bit, then the EU would have dismissed it without a second thought if they've got the same train of thought as us.

Edited by darkfang77, 24 September 2010 - 05:34 PM.

[Peret]

What makes terrorism different from other crimes is that it's directed against the government. It doesn't matter how many people are hurt, or whether the public is concerned - the official reaction comes because it's a challenge to the government's authority. Your petty freedom is insignificant compared to the vital importance of not giving in to blackmail, staying the course, defending our way of life, (insert hackneyed cliche here). There are people in the political classes who remember with some bitterness the last time a small group of people forced the government to do something it didn't want to. That would be the time when they held it up at sword point and forced it to sign Magna Carta. They have no intention of letting anything so disgraceful happen again.

[Potassium chlorate]

What makes terrorism different from other crimes is that it's directed against the government. It doesn't matter how many people are hurt, or whether the public is concerned - the official reaction comes because it's a challenge to the government's authority. Your petty freedom is insignificant compared to the vital importance of not giving in to blackmail, staying the course, defending our way of life, (insert hackneyed cliche here). There are people in the political classes who remember with some bitterness the last time a small group of people forced the government to do something it didn't want to. That would be the time when they held it up at sword point and forced it to sign Magna Carta. They have no intention of letting anything so disgraceful happen again.

That's the reasons for gun laws, for example. Gun laws aren't there to stop school shootings or massacres among civilians, they're there so that the people shouldn't have the shadow of a chance to make a successful uprising.

Though not a gun owner myself I almost get a stroke every time I hear some idiot defending the gun law and actually believing that it's there to protect us from our fellow citizens - no my friends, it's there to protect the powers-that-be from us.

Even in the US more people drown in swimming pools or die in traffic accidents or by cancer than are killed by lunatics with guns.

The worst thing I ever heard on the matter here in Sweden was a jerkass who thought that the police should ignore the illegal guns owned by the gross criminals, because "they mostly have internals disputes, so their guns don't concern the common man" and concentrate on enforcing the control of the legally owned guns - could it be more obvious that laws aren't there to make justice but to keep status quo? Doublethink, anyone?

Edited by Pyroswede, 25 September 2010 - 11:03 AM.

[Potassium chlorate]

And back on topic: I see that this proposal was made by a Swede. Shame on him!

[Creepin_pyro]

Edited by Creepin_pyro, 29 September 2010 - 08:28 AM.

[starseeker]

Hi Folks,

Sorry if this has been covered before but I came across this proposal from the EU.

http://ec.europa.eu/...E_REGLEMENT.pdf

In a nutshell it would make buying the following items illegal without a licence:
Hydrogen Peroxide > 12% w/w
Potassium or Sodium Chlorate and Perchlorate
Nitric Acid > 3% w/w
Ammonium Nitrate.

[Posession of existing stock OK for 3 years]


The following items if purchased may be reported as "suspiscous":

Sulfuric Acid
Hexamine
Sodium/potassium Nitrate
Calcium Nitrate.

I don't use anything off the first list, but it would be annoying if I couldn't get hold of sulfuric as I do use that sometimes for home chemistry experiments :-(

Anbody else seen this?


Regards,
Redcone.

I see that this legislation was enacted in canada in 2008.

[Steve]

Cheer up lads, I'd like to think the pyrotechnic community is a bit smarter than the terrorist community. Constraint inspires innovation. The list is very short, there could be possibilites in strontium nitrate black powder, and some stranger / exotic oxidisers being used for coloured stars.

And just to add my 2p worth to the negative side. The only terrorist attack I've ever heard using low order explosives, was the guy that blew up the gay clubs in London using powder he extracted from shop fireworks. Is this a subtle way of banning fireworks in Europe?

[digger]

I hope this pointless piece of legislation does not go through as previously stated. However lets hope if it does that there is cost effective licencing arrangement that comes with it (although this is not always the case)

[Andrew]

Cheer up lads, I'd like to think the pyrotechnic community is a bit smarter than the terrorist community. Constraint inspires innovation.

Yes it does.


Innovation aside I was having a read, and the pre-consultation draft is full of loopholes.

One scary thing about it is that they want to have the power for morons to add to the list as they see fit!

One thing that made me laugh about the proposed legislation is the draft is very open about the fact that it will only heighten “perceived” safety, i.e. there is no expectation that this will in any way thawt any future terrorist attempts. The draft does however acknowledge how much annoyance it will cause.

Perhaps the biggest pain is that the proposed legislation seeks to ban/licence the manufacture of the listed chemicals also. Sorry guys but this will turn everyone with a chlorate cell into a terrorist overnight!

When I started my post graduate research I was working with 99% Hydrogen Peroxide (a tad more than 12%!). I fear my work would have been seriously hampered by this unnecessary bureaucracy. I would be seriously annoyed by some moron local council licensing officer saying “no you cannot have a licence for that, it's not on my list, errrrrr, next please”. Which brings me onto my next point, the legislation may end up saying you can get a licence but that is no guarantee that they will hand them out on the ground!

[Potassium chlorate]

Time to finally say "no" to Big Brother, anyone?

Though most probably too late now

Big Brother dubble-plus-no-good.

[Arthur Brown]

With the quality and quantity of education available for money these days there are enough people with the ability to cause terror without buying the usual products. Of the terror attacks of the last few years one used a 4WD car to put gas cylinders in Glasgow airport - ban 4WDs and gas cylinders, and another used flour in a mix so lets ban all kinds of cooking flour (bread and pastry would than need an RCA!)

The current legislators haven't a clue Ask Jill Dando's parents whether banning hand guns made their daughter safe.

[Potassium chlorate]

With the quality and quantity of education available for money these days there are enough people with the ability to cause terror without buying the usual products. Of the terror attacks of the last few years one used a 4WD car to put gas cylinders in Glasgow airport - ban 4WDs and gas cylinders, and another used flour in a mix so lets ban all kinds of cooking flour (bread and pastry would than need an RCA!)

The current legislators haven't a clue Ask Jill Dando's parents whether banning hand guns made their daughter safe.

Banning guns just makes the state and the criminals stronger. Anyone in favour of gun laws should ask themselves how it comes that the US, Switzerland and the Czech Republic have the most liberal gun laws in the world, while Russia, North Korea and China have the most draconic ones.

Banning pyro out of paranoia for terrorism is just plain stupid and ignorant. If you know that little of chemistry or how thing works in real life at all, you shouldn't be allowed to make laws.

[phildunford]

The only thing we can do at the moment is write to our MPs on these specific matters & on the general issues of freedom. Don't know if it will help, as it's hardly a major vote-winner, but in the current, slightly more liberal atmosphere, who knows?

The government must also realise that while UK citizens are a placid, easy going lot, there is a breaking point past we get out the pitchforks and flaming torches...

[scjb]

The government must also realise that while UK citizens are a placid, easy going lot, there is a breaking point past we get out the pitchforks and flaming torches...

When one can be arrested under Anti-Terrorist legislation for speaking out at a Party conference, I suspect that "direct action" is a thing of the past!!

Anyway, I suspect this thread may well be getting sufficiently political to be contrary to the aims of the Society? (As observed by an outsider!)

EDIT: Bugger! Got my "Vote Post" buttons and "Multi-Quote" buttons mixed up! Sorry for any confusion! Though Phil is probably right about the MP's thing. I'm presuming the Society is discussing a joint response?

Edited by scjb, 12 October 2010 - 02:38 PM.