27 replies to this topic

[Atom Fireworks]

Hi fellas, after having success with organic compositions last year this year i have tried to have a stab at metal fueled ones. Namely the velein system. Now all my chems are from a reputable supplier so they are not in question. My problem is i can only get 40-60% of my stars to light.

I will take you through step by step how i have gone about making them and a little video at the end of 2 4" test shells. There were 3x 3" and 2x4" but only caught the 4s on camera.

I weigh out the chems as per the ratio by veliene, i grind the safe chems together in my coffe grinder and the oxidisers seperatly. I then screen them together by passing the mix through a seive around 10 times and mixing with a spoon in between each " turn". Once my mix is ready i either roll them onto little lead shot or i make star cores ot of the mix first let them dry then roll onto them. Once the star mix is rolled and i have nice spherical balls ( or as close as i can get) then i roll my prime on, my prime is mill dust with around 5% silicon and roll around 1mm-2mm onto the stars.

I allow them to dry for as many days as it takes in a warm dry place until i can only break them by crushing them with a set of pliers.

No for the things ive tested and changed,

1, I have added more and less silicon to the prime
2, i have rolled 1/2mm layers at a time and let dry before adding the next layer onto the star.
3, i have tried using tigertail mix as an inner prime and bp as an outer prime.
4, I have tried letting the star dry on their own before rolling on a prime.
5, I have tried adding dark ali to the prime.

There may be other things ive tried but cannot remember at present. Its beginning to really piss me of now as i thought i had it nailed until i did the test shells. Strangley the smaller stars in a rocket i made seemed to light perfectly, they were around 4mm with a 1 mm layer of bp/silicon. I will add the video of the rocket aswell. The bang is a 6 gram flash salute i added but it went of abit delayed it was supposed to be the main burst.

Any suggestions on what i could be doing wrong here as i think ive had a go at it from all angles. The only things i have not tried are as follows,

1, try using acetone to activate the red gun as the binder instead of water/alchol mix.
2, cutting the stars instead of rolling.

The strange thing is the prime allways ignites without fail its just the prime fails to light the star. I may be barking up the wrong tree here but i have been thinking about a problem that may arise when rolling. From what ive noticed some particles in the mix seem to stick better than others, could this result in the original well mixed composition being " un-mixed" in the process of rolling? Probably wrong but ime scraping the barrel now.

The videos are here and here excuse the little bit of giggling i get abit to excited when experimenting its an uncontrollable habit of mine he he And as you can hear i have no problem lifting them plenty high enough, i added abit too much lift around 12% but i like abit of a saefty margin as i know my shell building is excellent and they will not flower pot with 50% lift ratio ( tested).

[Potassium chlorate]

Veline's sucks from many aspects.

I have also had problems with metallic stars, even making a separate thread about it.

I use a system with chlorates, nitrates and -- with a few exceptions - -magnesium instead, though, bound with parlon and occasionally with NC-lacquer as a solvent instead of pure aceton.

Though I'm still experimenting with the best prime. Last year I used H3+10% Si in NC-lacquer as a prime, but I don't think that's optimal. I think microstar prime:

potassium perchlorate 70
red gum 20
silicon 10

would be fine, though. You use alcohol as a solvent, which means that you can use it on both parlon and dextrin bound stars without dissolving the star composition itself, which otherwise may happen.

[Atom Fireworks]

Veline's sucks from many aspects.

I have also had problems with metallic stars, even making a separate thread about it.

I use a system with chlorates, nitrates and -- with a few exceptions - -magnesium instead, though, bound with parlon and occasionally with NC-lacquer as a solvent instead of pure aceton.

Though I'm still experimenting with the best prime. Last year I used H3+10% Si in NC-lacquer as a prime, but I don't think that's optimal. I think microstar prime:

potassium perchlorate 70
red gum 20
silicon 10

would be fine, though. You use alcohol as a solvent, which means that you can use it on both parlon and dextrin bound stars without dissolving the star composition itself, which otherwise may happen.

So theres nothing wrong with my achol/water mix as the binder activator?

[Potassium chlorate]

So theres nothing wrong with my achol/water mix as the binder activator?

I haven't tried the microstar prime yet, but it should work since microstars are pretty hard to ignite.

I intend to use pure alcohol, though, or maybe alcohol with a little shellac in it as an additional binder and fuel.

[Atom Fireworks]

I dont really like the idea of using chlorate atall, i do not have any and do not intend on buying any. I have ran out of perchlorate for now so experimenting must stop. I might just go back to the organic stars, though not as bright as metallic fueled they are still nice and worked well for me.

[Potassium chlorate]

I dont really like the idea of using chlorate atall, i do not have any and do not intend on buying any. I have ran out of perchlorate for now so experimenting must stop. I might just go back to the organic stars, though not as bright as metallic fueled they are still nice and worked well for me.

What I mean is that you could use water/alchol as a solvent for the star composition but pure alcohol for the prime, if you use red gum as a binder and fuel for the prime. Would work well with BP too. Say BP+10% red gum+10% Si.

[starseeker]

Hi dumper,
i have used the veline system with good results,i think the easiest way to sort out your problem is to use a step prime.
When you have reached the desired star size,mix 50/50 star comp/b.p,roll this on about 1/2mm thick,then 75/25 b.p,prime,1/2mm again,then finally a pure b.p layer.This is the system i used with excellent ignition.

The reason your tiger tail did not work is it is not hot enough to light the comp.

[maxman]

Or there is a specific prime for veline. Got nasty dichromate in it though! You need something that throws out hot slag. Anyone tried Ron Lancasters prime from his book?

KN03 40%
Silicon powder 300 mesh 40%
Meal 20%

Maxman

[portfire]

Theres also the Veline style prime...No nasty dichromate in it. Dont have it to hand though. A slow meal + 20% Silicon will work fine

[Vic]

Theres also the Veline style prime...No nasty dichromate in it. Dont have it to hand though. A slow meal + 20% Silicon will work fine

Veline style prime
by Pax

Potassium Perchlorate 62
Charcoal Airfloat 22
Magnalium granular -200 mesh 7
Dextrin 4
Aluminium flake dark pyro 3
copper Oxide black 2

[portfire]

Thats the one...Cheers vic

[dr thrust]

i found tiger-tail milled for a hour +20% silicon powder works great for lighting most things ive made.
not over keen on the veline system there's much better color formula out there, and i prefer a nice glitter star these days to a plain colored star , unless its a tailed star or charcoal to colored pistal

[Potassium chlorate]

i found tiger-tail milled for a hour +20% silicon powder works great for lighting most things ive made.
not over keen on the veline system there's much better color formula out there, and i prefer a nice glitter star these days to a plain colored star , unless its a tailed star or charcoal to colored pistal

BP, KP and H3 with silicon are all very good. Only thing is what you should bind it with. My home-made NC-lacquer was good but not the one that I used recently, methinks. Though I'll give potassium perchlorate+red gum+silicon a try.

I don't think Veline's system is that great either. Though like you I'm also considering making beautiful BP based stars instead. Cheaper, simpler and might be as beautiful or even more beautiful when properly done. Until around 1800 most fireworks were BP based, so it was good enough for people for about thousand years at least...

Edited by Potassium chlorate, 26 October 2010 - 10:19 PM.

[digger]

All interesting stuff.

Yes the velines don't have the best colour saturation on the prime colours. However I still think it is a decent system, the mixed colours are good. It can give a nice range of pastel colours right across the rainbow with similar brightness levels right across the range.

You should not have dificulty lighting them. I guess the main issues are (as others have said):-

1.) ensure that the chemicals are fine enough (I am sure you are doing that).
2.) ensure that you are wetting properly when applying the layer if prime so it does not fracture off.
3.) Use a good hot prime, the silicon prime should be good enough. There should not be a need to go up to 20%, 8% - 10% silicon should be enough. A slightly courser mesh is useful 40 - dust can be useful.
4.) Make sure the prime is not to fast so no 4 hour milled willow meal.
5.) Dial down the break a bit, maybe use a good whistle and not flash. You will still get a a good burst, just not hammered open rather pushed hard.
6.) If all else fails use a step prime as described above (it should only be needed on the hardest stars to light which these should not be).

Yes most of this is above, but that's my 2 cents

[Potassium chlorate]

Though flash is hot and more likely to ignite the stars with its pure heat(?)

I still don't get a perfect ignition either; 60-70%, no matter the break charge.

I think organic chlorate stars and BP stars are simply much more ignitable than stars with (lots) of metal and/or perchlorate.